Lawrenceburg - Flagman Starting the Race

Phylo82 · 7/21/08, 4:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SUPERDUKE

I guess you never seen jack hewitt start in the back and be leading at the starting line?

What would that have to do with the flagman or the pole-sitter starting the race? It's no different than a re-start. You cannot pass until you reach the cone or the white line.

In your scenerio above, under the rules I recommended, the yellow would come out, Jack would be warned and moved to the tail. If he did it again he'd be black-flagged.

SUPERDUKE · 7/21/08, 5:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phylo82

what would that have to do with the flagman or the pole-sitter starting the race? It's no different than a re-start. You cannot pass until you reach the cone or the white line.

In your scenerio above, under the rules i recommended, the yellow would come out, jack would be warned and moved to the tail. If he did it again he'd be black-flagged.

thats when the wreck happens bringing out the yellow on the back chute after the start!!!!!!! THE RACE STARTS WHEN THE GREEN FLAG WAVES!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NOT WHEN THE POLE SITTER TAKES OFF!

Phylo82 · 7/21/08, 5:57 PM

I have seen many more wrecks and re-starts under the current rule (flagman starting the race) then when the pole-sitter starts it.

Maybe it's the new layout of the track.....I really don't know. What I do know is that when multiple drivers tell me they cannot watch the flagman and the car in front of them you are going to have problems. Especially when the first row is checking up to avoid jumping the start.

Flags anything · 7/21/08, 6:10 PM

Whille spend over a quarter of a century during my racing days in the flag stand I have been able to work with alot of sanciting bodies and race tracks, this "intial start being called back for jumping" has beat up so many times by the fans, drivers, and yes the flagman.

Most of the sancitiong bodies designate a point (usally T-4 or just out on the front chute) with a cone/ white line where they "want" the "leader/ field" to pick up the throttle. If everything at point properly alinged we "go green".

When things don't go right that is where the issues of was it a "bad start" come into play. Here is what I am looking at when the geen waves.

1) Did the "field throttle up" altogether, or did the "pole/ front row" take off way to early. If the first occured it's a "good start". If the second occured, the "pole/ front row" just got an advantage over the balance of the "field." That isn't fair to the racers in back of the field of that race.

2) If it's a "bad/ false start" what is the "correct action" to get the "fair start". First throw the yellow and get'em in line. Most sancitioning bodies will allow 1 "false start", depending on the size of the track the cars are back in line and usally between the flagman and "track steward" at the cone/ line when they get back to that point, the drivers understand their mistake and we are ready to race, issue resolved.

3) If it happens again (same event) now is where it could get confusing, as there are to 2 schools of thought. One play on penalize the offender at the next yellow (in most cases 2 for 1 gained) or throw the yellow (false start) and peanlize at that point. Thankfully the sancitioing bodies and track I have been with opt for the 1 action.

Now look at if it's not the "pole/ front row" it's deeper in the field. Over the years in drivers meeting it has been explained and explained and explained..... "you are to be 2 by by 2 by 2 and front row picks the throttle at the cone/ line. He is going to be treated just like any other "jumper."

For the most part, once the drivers figure out the "quriks, twitches or movement" that the flagman dose (not intentionly)that split second before he/ she waves the green then it's sometimes ugly. And the same goes for the flagman, he/ she needs to learn what the drivers "quirks" are then everyone concerne is on the same page and hopefully no "false starts."

Remember we could go back to the "days of old" where the racers had to be "side by side" at the "STARTING LINE/ FLAGSTAND" Now how many "false starts" would we have by that procedure.

The thing to look at is, DID EVERYBODY THROTTLE UP AT THE SAME TIME AND DID ANYBODY GAIN AN ADVANTAGE BEFORE THE GREEN FLAG/ LIGHT.

When I am flagging a race I strive only use 4 flags the whole night a green, white, checkerd, and a yellow (only because that lets the drivers know that there is push trucks on the track.)

cecil98 · 7/21/08, 7:06 PM

The thing to look at is, DID EVERYBODY THROTTLE UP AT THE SAME TIME AND DID ANYBODY GAIN AN ADVANTAGE BEFORE THE GREEN FLAG/ LIGHT...Flags anything

It is the responsibility of the rest of the field to keep pace with the pole sitter as long as the polesitter sets a "reasonable" pace before the start and maintains that pace until he reaches that designated point somewhere in turn 4 (or wherever the track or sanctioning body establishes it). The only problem that really can occur under this scenario is if a car, in any of the rows behind row 1, doesn't keep pace and holds up everyone behind him. If that happens, it's considered a false start, the car not keeping pace would be warned and if it happens twice, he goes to the tail, the same as if he had jumped the start.

SUPERDUKE · 7/21/08, 8:02 PM

OK DO AWAY WITH THE FLAGMAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AND LET THEM START WHENEVER THEY WANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:redflag:

COTTLE FAN · 7/21/08, 8:43 PM

Its a great Ideia to let the flagman start the race, IF everybody can see the flagman. If the guys in the second row cant see the flagman, then the leaders have an advantage. Whats worse is the guys five or six rows back can look out the left side and see the flagman, then they get a jump on the guys that cant see. Im not sure what the answer is, but the pole sitter is on the pole for a reason, even if it is luck of the draw and the front row should start the race, if for no other reason then they are the ones racing, and the flagman is nothing more then the official who makes sure nobody gets an advantage. Dale

Phylo82 · 7/21/08, 9:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SUPERDUKE

OK DO AWAY WITH THE FLAGMAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AND LET THEM START WHENEVER THEY WANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:redflag:

I am not sure why I am responding to this post, but......No one has said get rid of the flagman. It is the flagman's job to make sure the race is started clean. That doesn't mean he needs to start the race. The pole-sitter can do that when he hits the starting line.

As someone else mentioned above, if the pole-sitter jumps too soon yellow-flag it. The first time is a warning, the second time he moves to the tail. The same thing goes for anyone else in line. If they jump the start or if they don't keep up at the start.

It's that simple. Races will start cleaner and you won't have the problems that are occuring now.

Big Willy · 7/22/08, 12:31 AM

i always liked the way the hav-a-tampa late models started their races. they carried a big box with a green flood lights in it and the flagman had control of the switch. the drivers had to maintain their 2 x 2 position and kept the pace slow until the flagman turned on the green light. any jumping of the start relegated the offender to the rear of the event. the rows behind all fired when the man ahead of him did and there was hardly ever a bad start. that caution thrown on the backstretch is very dangerous especially with sprint cars on small tight race tracks.

zeroracer · 7/22/08, 12:41 AM

I have to agree with the track configuration its hard to see the flagman on starts if you start farther back than the second row, I dont think they would have jumped starts if they did the two cone rule one between three and four and one at the exit of 4, and the leader fires somewhere between

7/21/08, 5:57 PM	#13 Re: Lawrenceburg - Flagman Starting the Race
Phylo82 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 1,054	I have seen many more wrecks and re-starts under the current rule (flagman starting the race) then when the pole-sitter starts it. Maybe it's the new layout of the track.....I really don't know. What I do know is that when multiple drivers tell me they cannot watch the flagman and the car in front of them you are going to have problems. Especially when the first row is checking up to avoid jumping the start. __________________ Phil Heil #13e Maxim Sprint Owner, Crew Chief, Pit Crew, Hauler, Check Writer, Grunt

7/21/08, 6:10 PM	#14 Re: Lawrenceburg - Flagman Starting the Race
Flags anything Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 38	Whille spend over a quarter of a century during my racing days in the flag stand I have been able to work with alot of sanciting bodies and race tracks, this "intial start being called back for jumping" has beat up so many times by the fans, drivers, and yes the flagman. Most of the sancitiong bodies designate a point (usally T-4 or just out on the front chute) with a cone/ white line where they "want" the "leader/ field" to pick up the throttle. If everything at point properly alinged we "go green". When things don't go right that is where the issues of was it a "bad start" come into play. Here is what I am looking at when the geen waves. 1) Did the "field throttle up" altogether, or did the "pole/ front row" take off way to early. If the first occured it's a "good start". If the second occured, the "pole/ front row" just got an advantage over the balance of the "field." That isn't fair to the racers in back of the field of that race. 2) If it's a "bad/ false start" what is the "correct action" to get the "fair start". First throw the yellow and get'em in line. Most sancitioning bodies will allow 1 "false start", depending on the size of the track the cars are back in line and usally between the flagman and "track steward" at the cone/ line when they get back to that point, the drivers understand their mistake and we are ready to race, issue resolved. 3) If it happens again (same event) now is where it could get confusing, as there are to 2 schools of thought. One play on penalize the offender at the next yellow (in most cases 2 for 1 gained) or throw the yellow (false start) and peanlize at that point. Thankfully the sancitioing bodies and track I have been with opt for the 1 action. Now look at if it's not the "pole/ front row" it's deeper in the field. Over the years in drivers meeting it has been explained and explained and explained..... "you are to be 2 by by 2 by 2 and front row picks the throttle at the cone/ line. He is going to be treated just like any other "jumper." For the most part, once the drivers figure out the "quriks, twitches or movement" that the flagman dose (not intentionly)that split second before he/ she waves the green then it's sometimes ugly. And the same goes for the flagman, he/ she needs to learn what the drivers "quirks" are then everyone concerne is on the same page and hopefully no "false starts." Remember we could go back to the "days of old" where the racers had to be "side by side" at the *"STARTING LINE/ FLAGSTAND"* Now how many "false starts" would we have by that procedure. The thing to look at is, *DID EVERYBODY THROTTLE UP AT THE SAME TIME AND DID ANYBODY GAIN AN ADVANTAGE BEFORE THE GREEN FLAG/ LIGHT.* When I am flagging a race I strive only use 4 flags the whole night a green, white, checkerd, and a yellow (only because that lets the drivers know that there is push trucks on the track.)

7/21/08, 7:06 PM	#15 Re: Lawrenceburg - Flagman Starting the Race
cecil98 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 1,399	The thing to look at is, DID EVERYBODY THROTTLE UP AT THE SAME TIME AND DID ANYBODY GAIN AN ADVANTAGE BEFORE THE GREEN FLAG/ LIGHT...Flags anything It is the responsibility of the rest of the field to keep pace with the pole sitter as long as the polesitter sets a "reasonable" pace before the start and maintains that pace until he reaches that designated point somewhere in turn 4 (or wherever the track or sanctioning body establishes it). The only problem that really can occur under this scenario is if a car, in any of the rows behind row 1, doesn't keep pace and holds up everyone behind him. If that happens, it's considered a false start, the car not keeping pace would be warned and if it happens twice, he goes to the tail, the same as if he had jumped the start.

7/21/08, 8:02 PM	#16 Re: Lawrenceburg - Flagman Starting the Race
SUPERDUKE Banned Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 2,256	OK DO AWAY WITH THE FLAGMAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AND LET THEM START WHENEVER THEY WANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:redflag:

7/21/08, 8:43 PM	#17 Re: Lawrenceburg - Flagman Starting the Race
COTTLE FAN Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 138	Its a great Ideia to let the flagman start the race, IF everybody can see the flagman. If the guys in the second row cant see the flagman, then the leaders have an advantage. Whats worse is the guys five or six rows back can look out the left side and see the flagman, then they get a jump on the guys that cant see. Im not sure what the answer is, but the pole sitter is on the pole for a reason, even if it is luck of the draw and the front row should start the race, if for no other reason then they are the ones racing, and the flagman is nothing more then the official who makes sure nobody gets an advantage. Dale

7/22/08, 12:31 AM	#19 Re: Lawrenceburg - Flagman Starting the Race
Big Willy Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 105	i always liked the way the hav-a-tampa late models started their races. they carried a big box with a green flood lights in it and the flagman had control of the switch. the drivers had to maintain their 2 x 2 position and kept the pace slow until the flagman turned on the green light. any jumping of the start relegated the offender to the rear of the event. the rows behind all fired when the man ahead of him did and there was hardly ever a bad start. that caution thrown on the backstretch is very dangerous especially with sprint cars on small tight race tracks.

7/22/08, 12:41 AM	#20 Re: Lawrenceburg - Flagman Starting the Race
zeroracer Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 251	I have to agree with the track configuration its hard to see the flagman on starts if you start farther back than the second row, I dont think they would have jumped starts if they did the two cone rule one between three and four and one at the exit of 4, and the leader fires somewhere between