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10/5/19, 3:27 PM   #31
Re: F1 - Halo to the Rescue (Spoiler)
Brickyard
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Originally Posted by jonboat15 View Post
I didn't know there was a guy named Jack Harvey racing Indy cars. Did he come from a short track racing background?
Apparently you don't pay much attention to the Indy 500's you claim to watch.....

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Originally Posted by jonboat15 View Post
Not sure about you but racing has always be exciting to me for several reasons, and the element of danger happens to be one of them, that's why every tom, dick, and mary doesn't want to drive a race car.
That element hasn't left with the addition of this device. It's purpose is to ensure a higher probability of walking away. It's what we call risk mitigation.

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Originally Posted by jonboat15 View Post
Maybe I'm a little wacky but in my mechanical professions I have had to do some unsafe acts for my employers that would have been big osha red flags but the jobs have to be done on time and I don't mind a little danger. If the prima donna drivers don't think they are safe enough maybe they should find a safer occupation.
And you are one I wouldn't want within 100 yards of me on a project, nor would you want me near you....see I'm one who once risked prosecution for disobeying an unsafe order. If I or anyone was going down for that order it was going to be for doing the right thing not because we got a bunch of people injured and killed due someone's stupidity. Oh, and the top of the food chain in that organization, the people that matter when the other shoe drops, agreed with me. I wasn't the one sent packing nor was I the one with blood on my hands because "i don't mind a little danger" and I believe "those that don't think it's safe enough should find a safer occupation."
 
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10/5/19, 5:41 PM   #32
Re: F1 - Halo to the Rescue (Spoiler)
jonboat15
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Maybe I don't pay enough attention to The 500 like I used to. Jack Hewitt I remember, Jack Harvey no.
I can tell you are a bit more passionate about this subject than I am, I am a Neanderthal just ask my wife.
Getting ready to watch the Burg, could give a crap about Indy till May.
 
10/6/19, 12:07 PM   #33
Re: F1 - Halo to the Rescue (Spoiler)
Brickyard
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Originally Posted by jonboat15 View Post
I can tell you are a bit more passionate about this subject than I am, I am a Neanderthal just ask my wife.
The danger is never going to go away, but if the formula allows an advancement in an area that will further protect a driver, I'm all for it.

I was at the Burg last nigh and Eldora last week, which is funny because a few on here have accused me of being a CART and Penske shill and anti dirt track hero at Indy because I don't have a problem with foreign drivers and road/street courses. There were some heavy crashes both nights that resulted in rollovers or cars in the fence. How many on here, to include yourself, would advocate to go back to the days of no roll cages and seat belts? I find it insane that we used to race that way and the headlines this past week might have very well included the names of three or four dead drives, just from those two tracks alone, if we did. No different here, in a couple of years people will hardly notice and shake their heads at the fact we used to expose these guy's and gal's head to the elements while running 235mph around Indy. Those cars will still injure you very easily, but hopefully we aren't going to have to put another driver on life support or six feet under because they caught a piece of another car that was in an accident they had no part of.
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Last edited by Brickyard; 10/6/19 at 12:18 PM.
 
10/8/19, 3:33 PM   #34
Re: F1 - Halo to the Rescue (Spoiler)
Stevensville Mike
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Originally Posted by Brickyard View Post
How many on here, to include yourself, would advocate to go back to the days of no roll cages and seat belts? I find it insane that we used to race that way.....
On that topic, I can remember watching a video on A.J. Foyt. This was probably 25+years ago. At that time, and even moreso, at this time, A.J. was a true product of racing through the decades.

The topic at this point in the video pertained to cars crashing, rolling over, and drivers being hurt or, worse yet, killed. Safety was always improving, but should always CONTINUE to improve.

A.J. noted that back in the days before roll cages and and better driver protection (full face helmets, neck braces, etc.) you had to think twice before making a daring cut and slice type move or throwing your car in real deep into a corner to outbreak your opponent. If you made a mistake and your car rolled or crashed, you would then have 3, 4, 5 months, or so, laying in a hospital bed, thinking about it. And once healed and back racing, trying that again without remembering what went wrong last time.

Nowadays (referring to midgets/sprints/Silver Crown) you have full roll cages and the drivers are heavily protected via belts, helmets, and padding. He pointed out that it was common back in the "old days" to pack pieces of cardboard under your driver's suit for shoulder padding.

But with this extra protection, the attitude of the new drivers changed. They became more daring. So you flip, roll, and crash? Now you just climb out through the cage and go on to your next race. It changed the racing ITSELF. If you were not willing to continually throw yourself into the frying pan with over the top moves, you were not going to get ahead. Too many of the other drivers will do it for you. Now your veteran drivers are not just the ones leading the big dicey daring moves. The new drivers are doing it, too. EVERYONE knows you have a much less chance of injury due to the safety upgrades, so, in a sense, everyone gained a little more courage for the envelope could be pressed further.

Now, this type of analogy really is not that applicable to IndyCars, for there is only so many daring moves one could make vice a sprint car. But, could it possibly change the dynamics of the racing form from what it is today? I do not think it would be as much as, let us say, when wings came about, or rear engine cars, but a change is a change and everything will play out. I think if anything, it might change the aero on the cars, but when all chassis are the same.....?
 
10/8/19, 7:43 PM   #35
Re: F1 - Halo to the Rescue (Spoiler)
Puppy
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I don't know if it has been discussed, I didn't know until I saw this video. But 2 drivers were saved from possible injury by the halo in the Hulbert crash as is seen in this footage... Very interesting.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msmbe3ijMXo
Also if you're interested, check out the smoke coming from Correa's car befor he hit Hulbert, it appears his front wing endplate is gone. Possibly from hitting flying debris and getting lodged up the car and keeping him from steering/braking correctly???
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Last edited by Puppy; 10/8/19 at 7:46 PM.
 
10/9/19, 11:24 AM   #36
Re: F1 - Halo to the Rescue (Spoiler)
Brickyard
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevensville Mike View Post
Now, this type of analogy really is not that applicable to IndyCars, for there is only so many daring moves one could make vice a sprint car. But, could it possibly change the dynamics of the racing form from what it is today? I do not think it would be as much as, let us say, when wings came about, or rear engine cars, but a change is a change and everything will play out. I think if anything, it might change the aero on the cars, but when all chassis are the same.....?
That very thing has been discussed quite a bit by Robin Miller, Marshall Pruett, and drivers that as the cars have become safer drivers are more willing to make more aggressive moves, especially on the road courses with more run off....you still don't want to tempt the catch fence in one of these cars. Drivers have much better frontal impact protection, side, and rear impact protection than they ever have.

I think many view the type of aggression seen during the old lower HP higher downforce IRL package as a different animal. Drivers were put in that position on some of the ovals, needlessly I might add. A car would get a run, then stall, creating in some cases a pack type deal where multi car crashes could happen with one mistake. I think the aggressiveness in today's formula comes from some part safety some part getting that edge at the start/restart because of how close competition has become. I think both attributed to the bold turn 2 sector moves we saw at Pocono the past two years. The 2018 accident wasn't the first time I had seen Wickens make a bold move going into a turn. We've all seen Rossi make some daring moves on the outside at Indy that many wouldn't have tried in the past.

From what Power said from his test at Indy, the aeroscreen, in his opinion, helped the balance by shifting some of the weight forward. RHR couldn't get a good feel on the road course test at Barber due to the new pavement and rain. They are testing again at Sebring so there will be place they have testing data for with an unchanged surface. Even though the cars are the same, some teams will be better at adapting depending on how good of a damper, engineering, and driver program they have. As in the past with change, we might even see some mid pack teams cope with it better than some of the bigger teams, if it's even that big of a deal to begin with.

But back to aggressive driving, even with what has been seen as more of it and with a car that has more power and less downforce, thus harder to drive, they've only seen 3.5 cautions per race since the demise of the old IRL formula with the past two years in the new formula well below that at 2.6 per race. Pre 2011 was seeing 5.1 per race. Granted, there are many factors that go into that, but just going off from 2012 onward, with a similar schedule and increasingly harder car to drive, we've seen numbers trend lower.

Cautions per race:
2012: 4.1, 2013: 4.5, 2014: 3.6, 2015: 4.6, 2016: 2.8, 2017: 4, 2018: 2.6, 2019: 2.6.

Due to accident/spin:
2012: 49, 2013: 63, 2014: 55, 2015: 45, 2016: 34, 2017: 35, 2018: 34, 2019: 36

During that time you've seen ovals stay in the 5 to 6 mark, street courses(which can see a lot of carnage) went from 6 in 2012 to 10 in 2013 down to 8 in 2014 to the current 5 the following year. IMO, one of the biggest factors, even with the aggression, has been in that cockpit. People can pout all they want about where these drivers come from, but it's hard to deny that the caliber from top to bottom has increased every year since 2008 reunification.
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Last edited by Brickyard; 10/9/19 at 11:31 AM.
 
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10/9/19, 11:35 AM   #37
Re: F1 - Halo to the Rescue (Spoiler)
Brickyard
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puppy View Post
I don't know if it has been discussed, I didn't know until I saw this video. But 2 drivers were saved from possible injury by the halo in the Hulbert crash as is seen in this footage... Very interesting.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msmbe3ijMXo
Also if you're interested, check out the smoke coming from Correa's car befor he hit Hulbert, it appears his front wing endplate is gone. Possibly from hitting flying debris and getting lodged up the car and keeping him from steering/braking correctly???
Yep, and kept Charles Leclerc from being hit from a piece of Alonso's car last year at Spa.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14...e-in-spa-crash
 
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10/9/19, 6:20 PM   #38
Re: F1 - Halo to the Rescue (Spoiler)
Puppy
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Originally Posted by Brickyard View Post
People can pout all thy want about where these drivers come from, but it's hard to deny that the caliber from top to bottom has increased every year since 2008 reunification.
Absolutely!
 
10/10/19, 12:52 PM   #39
captrat
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Gee, sounds like the Silver Crown cars should be a part of the Indy Car circuit, given that they have full cages and other safety upgrades. Of course that would mean Penske et al would have to field a different kind of car, OH forgot that's the reason they originally gave for dropping them. Do they now run same car on ovals, streets, and road courses? Not! Also, would mean they would have to scout talent in traditional American racing venues. Sadly, will never happen.
 
10/10/19, 8:51 PM   #40
Re: F1 - Halo to the Rescue (Spoiler)
Puppy
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Also, would mean they would have to scout talent in traditional American racing venues. Sadly, will never happen.
 
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