[Tim Clauson]

We were discussing the ramifications of Officials deciding the outcomes of these races both pro and con and a question came up, What if the exact same scenario (Loyette V Kuhn) happens on lap 1, 10, 20, or 38, of 40 lap race?

How far back in the race do you make this "Judgement" call.

Personally I feel these sanctioning bodies and officials are walking a slippery slope in deciding the outcome of races by making "Judgement" calls.

I lived the quarter midget way of "judging" a race and sadly (at least in my mind) I see this creeping (in some cases stampeding) into the professional arena and just like Saturday night the same situation can be scene (depending on vantage points) in several different ways.

I guess more then just this one circumstance I wonder what the thoughts are concerning this trend as a whole by both the competitors, Officials and Fans.

Thanks
Tim Clauson

[snoopy]

The powri officials made a similar call in one of the micro "B's. I have no problem as long as the same call is made next race, next month and the last race of the year. I do feel that Kuhn needs some sort of penalty for the retaliation. It was still costly and dangerous. If Loyette had relaxed it might have been even more dangerous. A little "I didn't like that" nudge is one thing, but that was a take aim and drill him.

[LEADERS EDGE]

Me personally, I really didn't have a problem with what Loyet did. Did I have a preference as to who won? No; because I know and like Brad Kuhn as well.

I don't feel Loyet was being dirty. I feel he was urgent for the win. I don't mean he is a desperate person, but when you have an opportunity to win something and everything is on the line, winners get a sense of urgency for the win. He saw his spot and he took it. Not too much unlike what J. Johnson did for the win at Martinsville.

Was it dangerous? Not really. I honestly don't believe that he would have done the same thing if he where at Belleville KS., Eldora etc....

That said; I will say that Powri has had a rule in place since last year that prohibts contact such as that. It is a known and enforced rule so it shouldn't have been a surprise when the race was awarded to Kuhn. As long as they are consistant, I don't mind the rule.

In my personal opinion I align more with Tim as that is a very subject call to make at times and I personally hate to see any race decided by an official.

It was a great show and I'm glad that Kuhn and Felker won as they deserved it.

I was also impressed at how quickly both guys got out of their cars. Who says the HANS and containment seats limit the ability and speed you can get out of these cars?

[6157]

Originally Posted by Tim Clauson We were discussing the ramifications of Officials deciding the outcomes of these races both pro and con and a question came up, What if the exact same scenario (Loyette V Kuhn) happens on lap 1, 10, 20, or 38, of 40 lap race? How far back in the race do you make this "Judgement" call. Personally I feel these sanctioning bodies and officials are walking a slippery slope in deciding the outcome of races by making "Judgement" calls. I lived the quarter midget way of "judging" a race and sadly (at least in my mind) I see this creeping (in some cases stampeding) into the professional arena and just like Saturday night the same situation can be scene (depending on vantage points) in several different ways. I guess more then just this one circumstance I wonder what the thoughts are concerning this trend as a whole by both the competitors, Officials and Fans. Thanks Tim Clauson

So Tim, if I'm getting the gist of what you're trying to say, are you saying it's okay for anyone to bulldoze the leader on the last lap with no repercussions whatsoever?

[sprinter25]

Until racers start paying the bills for cars that they wreck in the course of failed slide jobs, slide jobs will continue to happen....or all drivers will start to race others as they are raced. If you want respect, you'd better plan on giving respect to others, too.

I think that the bigger issue is that too many young drivers have little or no respect for others. They need to learn that, first. So if any organization has a rule with sanctions that prohibit such behavior, and enforces the said rule consistently, then I'm OK with that.

And, while "legislating" a win may be unpopular, it will either stop the bad behavior - or the club/group will cease to exist as owners/drivers won't support it....

[Tim Clauson]

Originally Posted by 6157 So Tim, if I'm getting the gist of what you're trying to say, are you saying it's okay for anyone to bulldoze the leader on the last lap with no repercussions whatsoever?

Not what I am saying at all and with or out an official's "judgement" there will always be "repercussions" for Bulldozing" the leader on the last lap.

I guess where I am trying to make sense of this is actually in two ways

#1 if this happens during the race before the last lap is it then ok ??? if not how do you stop the race to enforce the rule ?

#2 how do a limited # officials watch up to 24 midgets in a race and enforce this rule justifiably for all competitors ?

Again I not saying my way of thinking is right or wrong I would just like to hear a good argument for and or against the trend of "making calls" during a race.

Tim Clauson

[sprinter25]

Originally Posted by Tim Clauson Not what I am saying at all and with or out an official's "judgement" there will always be "repercussions" for Bulldozing" the leader on the last lap. I guess where I am trying to make sense of this is actually in two ways #1 if this happens during the race before the last lap is it then ok ??? if not how do you stop the race to enforce the rule ? #2 how do a limited # officials watch up to 24 midgets in a race and enforce this rule justifiably for all competitors ? Again I not saying my way of thinking is right or wrong I would just like to hear a good argument for and or against the trend of "making calls" during a race. Tim Clauson

When it occurs does not matter, in my mind. You wreck someone to pass them, you should get the boot.

But you point out a real problem - how do officials, limited in number, watch everyone?

Simple answer, they can't...physically impossible. So some will be missed. But if they make the majority of calls correctly and equitably, chances are that the rooting and gouging will stop.

But I can tell you from personal experience that I've had an official tell me that he "...didn't see anything..." when everyone in the pits and the grandstand saw it.
I lost a lot of respect for the guy when that happenned......

[carrytheleftfront]

Not all organizations mkae judgement calls...

[ShaneMugavin57]

I am old school and I beleive if Loyet crossed the line first he is your winner. I also beleive if Kuhn feels he deserves an ass whoopin then so be it. Lets face it neither one leaves in that bad a shape 1st and 2nd.

Some of my favorite videos on the web are with loyet because of his driving style. I just hope he isn't suprised or crying when he is sitting outside some race track in the weeds on his lid.

[6157]

Originally Posted by Tim Clauson Not what I am saying at all and with or out an official's "judgement" there will always be "repercussions" for Bulldozing" the leader on the last lap. I guess where I am trying to make sense of this is actually in two ways #1 if this happens during the race before the last lap is it then ok ??? if not how do you stop the race to enforce the rule ? #2 how do a limited # officials watch up to 24 midgets in a race and enforce this rule justifiably for all competitors ? Again I not saying my way of thinking is right or wrong I would just like to hear a good argument for and or against the trend of "making calls" during a race. Tim Clauson

If no calls are made then it's anarchy; a free for all and you have a pit area full of wrecked race cars at the end of the night.

If it happens during the race, you apply the appropriate penalty. There's no reason you cannot apply the same penalty at lap 7, as you can at lap 30. The only difference is, at lap 7, you have 23 laps to overcome that penalty. You do not have that advantage at lap 30. And I'm fine with that, as the end of the race should not be protection from a penalty for rough driving.

Unless you have 24 officials, some calls will go un-made but as long as the calls that are made are right and bare some influence on drivers thinking about making moves like that in the future that is the best you can ask for from officials.

Tim, I have to wonder what was your reaction when Brian was taken out of a transfer spot at Perris in the Midget and the driver who dumped him, got the transfer spot? I was appalled a call was not made in that situation.