[jdull99]

"Injection with filter (Kinsler) $3600
Header (Shoenfeld) $490
Oil pan $425
Fuel Pump $500
MSD/Electromotive ignition $1400
Dry Sump oil pump (Barnes) $2100
Dry Sump Tank $450
Drive gears and belts $300"

& that's how it starts...a bill of goods is sold as "junkyard engines" (or any of the such, its NOT only in this form of racing) & then one guy that has money/connections/manufacturer support shows up with something that was not really in the rules, and then everyone else has to play catch up & things get out of hand (not just "D2". 2.4, etc; pretty much all racing)...ALL because officials won't stand up to their original rules to the connected/well financed/manufacturers...for some reason, they are afraid of telling ONE or TWO in those positions, they can't have what they shouldn't (usually people say "well that isn't what made them fast"...ok, why did they spend $1000s + on smthn that wouldn't make them fast or add longevity to their program???)...BUT then, SOME of the same officials or series, are somehow "ok" with starting a whole new program (or additional series, segmenting what they have) and telling everyone to start over...all just because rules weren't contained in the 1st place...

In direct regard to this whole deal (NOT just one series or sanctioning body), the simplest way (to start) would be: Add 50lbs and 16 PSI to any car that does not have and OEM injector.

Much of the same (+) for anyone with more than a 10deg lay-over

(I don't know how many/if any; allow; but) no carbon fiber or titanium allowed anywhere on the cars either...it doesn't matter if they found it in the forums for cheap...just don't allow it...

& I of coarse I agree with the hard tire...BUT also, only allow ONE purchased per race night (obvsly more to start the year)...they have a form of this rule at my local NASCAR stock car track (so I'm not just making up smtn that isn't proven out)...everyone has a "tire bank"...idc if the guy that won five features all did it with the same RR, just DON'T ALLOW someone to buy a bunch every week (regardless of it they do or don't)...it can be figured out...if anyone wants to...

Cockpit adjustments: If USAC sprints don't allow them, these forms of racing sure shouldn't...I would think anyway...

[Wayne Davis]

Originally Posted by Ray3 The engine I'm calling $15k? Its right there in black and white for everyone to read. I didn't make the number up!! I compared apples to apples. New D2 to new Badger. The fact is they are basically the same price. The difference is one performs better and has better reliability due to better internal parts. You haven't made a dime but have you or are you planning to receive a free or reduced cost engine that is completely rebuilt and not a junk yard special like you want others to use? Why is it good enough for others to use junk yard specials when the owners of the series receive free or reduced price rebuilt engines? Also, lets tell everyone where the rules were first! Badger style or D2? Cause if I recall the current Badger style rules were implemented in 2013 with the IMRA. Then D2 rules were implemented in 2016. So don't make it sound like Badger rules came later. I still have all the rule books and revisions with dates if anyone would like proof on that as well. Also, your rules in Florida do not match those of the MTM or the IMRA so which series is the real D2? And remember, you're in Florida! Not really a hotbed of Midget racing action. You are really in no position to tell other series what their rules should be. I asked a really good friend of mine who is a former CEO of two very large companies how do we institute change in our sport. He told me to post verifiable facts and people will see the evidence and come around. Some day I think I'm going to introduce him to the people who argue with me so he can see how ridiculous people can actually be even when confronted with verifiable and factual information. This is my last post on this thread. So if anyone wants to discuss this further with me PM me.

The engine I'm calling $15k? Its right there in black and white for everyone to read. I didn't make the number up!!
This engine is not allowed in our series

I compared apples to apples. New D2 to new Badger. The fact is they are basically the same price. The difference is one performs better and has better reliability due to better internal parts.

I have NO IDEA what you mean about "NEW" D-2....there are STOCK engines out there that is over 8 years old...I have 1 of them and one just won the 2018 GDN

You haven't made a dime but have you or are you planning to receive a free or reduced cost engine that is completely rebuilt and not a junk yard special like you want others to use? Why is it good enough for others to use junk yard specials when the owners of the series receive free or reduced price rebuilt engines?

I have not made a damn dime because I give it ALL back to the racer...I have NEVER received or am NOT planning on receiving anything for my cars so you need to quit with the he said she said crap and get YOUR facts straight, unlike others do. And Yes I have and do run "JUNK YARD" engines...2015 championship was won with a totally stock 2.0 focus from Rusty Acres I bought for $375.00. I am running a 2.4 ecotec with the stock intake and plenum for this year..again get your facts right

Also, lets tell everyone where the rules were first! Badger style or D2? Cause if I recall the current Badger style rules were implemented in 2013 with the IMRA. Then D2 rules were implemented in 2016.

Less do tell everyone the TRUTH ...D-2 was started in 2011 when I coined the name for my series that allowed Focus Midgets/Ecotec Midgets/Motorcycle powered Lightning sprints to run together as 1... spoke to USAC in 2014 about trying to help save the OLD Focus series by the had put all their faith into the HPD deal. In late 2015 3 groups (series) wanted to copy my said rules...IMRA and I was even 90% close to the same...I contacted Kenny in late 2015 about these rules and about we needed to try to ALL get on 1 (one) set of rules, thus the St. Louis meeting in 2016...My rules were way more radical then what was being discuss and I gave into WAY to much for the betterment of MY Division II such as I did not want ANY carbon Fiber at all...others did...I did not want ANY titanium...others did...I kept NO rotating Ti.....I did not want Dry sump...they kept it I did not...I lobbied for flat top aftermarket pistons being they all wanted aftermarket rods but the 3 ecotec engine builders did not want that because the LE5 ecotec is the ONLY stock piston with 11.1 flat tops and that rule would have brought the other engines being implemented uo to the same compression...In fact my EXACT words was "Do you want this to be an ALL Ecotec engine series......

So don't make it sound like Badger rules came later. I still have all the rule books and revisions with dates if anyone would like proof on that as well. Also, your rules in Florida do not match those of the MTM or the IMRA so which series is the real D2? And remember, you're in Florida! Not really a hotbed of Midget racing action. You are really in no position to tell other series what their rules should be.

Yes BADGER rules did came later....LOSSMS, MTM and IMRA are exact other than the piston rule and as far as D-2...both call themselves SpeeD2 not D-2....My series is based in Jacksonville Florida but race in 7 different states 14 different tracks not just 1 or 2 tracks ....YOU are right I am not in a hotbed for midget racing here in the south. I am trying my best to do something that several has told me it CAN NOT be done...My series was founded in 2010 and still going even though I have had to fight tooth and nail against people just like you...I have beliefs and Ideas just like everyone and do the best I can, yet you and a couple others continue to beat me down and I continue to get up, brush myself off and continue...What I am proud of the most is we do not race for small purses like others do..yes I have had to pull $$$ out of my pocket on several occasions but I will never not do what I told my racers I would do... speaking of purses...what is yours?

Here it is:

for 22 cars
1 $1,000.00
2 $500.00
3 $350.00
4 $250.00
5 $200.00
6 $180.00
7 $170.00
8 $160.00
9 $150.00
10 $140.00
11 $130.00
12 $125.00
13 $120.00
14 $100.00
15 $100.00
16 $100.00
17 $100.00
18 $100.00
19 $100.00
20 $100.00
21 $100.00
22 $100.00

ours for 24 cars:
1 $1,200.00
2 $700.00
3 $500.00
4 $450.00
5 $400.00
6 $375.00
7 $350.00
8 $325.00
9 $300.00
10 $275.00
11 $250.00
12 $250.00
13 $250.00
14 $250.00
15 $250.00
16 $225.00
17 $225.00
18 $225.00
19 $225.00
20 $225.00
21 $200.00
22 $200.00
23 $200.00
24 $200.00

And that is what we all should be racing for....

I asked a really good friend of mine who is a former CEO of two very large companies how do we institute change in our sport. He told me to post verifiable facts and people will see the evidence and come around. Some day I think I'm going to introduce him to the people who argue with me so he can see how ridiculous people can actually be even when confronted with verifiable and factual information.

Would love to meet him and introduce FACTS....

In Closing: Racing, we all love it and we all are passionate about it for their own reasons. All series are not perfect, we are not perfect and their was only 1 that was and it was today 2,018 years ago, he was taking because he was perfect. Remember that before you start casting stones..

Where ever you race, whoever you race with just please if you own a midget, get it out of the garage and go race it...SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL RACE TRACK!!!

[LJC77]

I'll give you some facts.

This D2 crap is just a spin off of what the ILLINI, UMARA SPORTSMAN, series was doing for more than 20 years.
But some people think they knew how to make it "better"

Makes me laugh when I hear people say the golden answer is go smaller and harder with the tires. Kinda like what they had? 8" D.O.T. tires.

Thier old rules worked great, ANY engine was legal to run.
Thier restrictor package ALONG WITH the hard smaller tires people are asking for worked as a good equalizer.

The cheapest way to go race is to not have to go out and buy a new engine package, and tires every week.

But it all went down the sh$t tube when people cried about not having a "real" race tire. Then this D2 insanity started and they changed thier rules to try to help uniformity. That's when the series tanked, went from averaging 20 cars a weekend to 6-8 cars.

Pretty sure poweri realized that badger's rules were way easier and faster to tech and anyone who has raced with those guys knows there is lot less crying going on up there.

Badger is doing thier own completely different deal, shouldn't even be discussed in the same sentence as any D2 club.

D2 needs to go back to something simular to what the ILLINI rules used to be. It was THE cheapest way to race week in and week out. That is what you D2 guys really want right?

But keep crying and asking for rules to fit your agenda. Pretty soon things will go back to the way it used to be, shut up and run what ya brung. Seems like that works pretty well at the chilli bowl. Or better yet we'll all have no place to race anymore, we can sit at home and Irace, or whatever the hel* the snowflakes call it.

[jdull99]

I vote for sealed/spec shocks too...

People that gota see track records to validate their time at the track, can go watch a USAC race (good for them it appears they will have a good car count this year...just not at Bellville tho...or IRP...or Winchester...or Salem...or Sun Prairie...etc...etc...)

[Wayne Davis]

Originally Posted by jdull99 I vote for sealed/spec shocks too... People that gota see track records to validate their time at the track, can go watch a USAC race (good for them it appears they will have a good car count this year...just not at Bellville tho...or IRP...or Winchester...or Salem...or Sun Prairie...etc...etc...)

NO ONE want's that Jason...I have never allowed in-cockpit adjustments ever in my series...did not allow carbon or Ti until the 2016 meeting...I was at 1125 on weight and some wanted 1050...we all agreed 1100...
I have beat myself up trying to save racers a few bucks...They want to be able to OUT SPEND each other and really don't give a rats a$$ about saving $$$... instead of getting and spending on a national midget they would rather drop down to a lower class like Badger/IMRA/MTM/POWRi Eco Midgets/SSMS and out spend those that just want to go race so they can brag about that little Black and white checkered flag not how much $$$ it pays cause they (some anyway) don't want or care about the $$$...and seems that none of these (series) want to be on the EXACT same rules for 1 reason or another...D-2 will die just like the Illini series did because of the BONEHEADED BS like you are reading on here. One thing I can say is my rules are written for 3 years and do not change much even then...They have been the basic same rules since 2011 except what I deleted in 2016 at the St. Louis meeting that we all agreed upon and now you have people that are not D-2 that keep complaining that they are this or that...Just worry about YOUR series...Go by the rules you set in stone...tech and be fair and treat everyone the same no matter if they have 1000's of dollars or just a few hundred's of dollars in their car to race....But TECH if you have rules..I DQ'ed a Fri. night winner at this years GDN and he is an owner of a race track we are trying to get a race at...That did not in no shape or form keep me from DQ'in him at the end of the day we all need to take a deep breathe and go have a together
that's all I got to say about that!!

[Backitin]

Originally Posted by the1jet17 I think Cobra14 really hit the nail on the head. That could be a great series with a cheap engine under $3k. Micro sprints are cheap but I don't want to drive three hours to and from a race track every weekend.

less and harder tire would automatically reduce engine and tire expenses but I don't agree with the micro sprints being cheap. They are less expensive but not cheap. For sure cheaper to run but I can get a used 602 crate mod for the same price as a used micro. I'm talking a real modified not a imca or whatever like they run on the show dirt knights.

[Ray3]

Originally Posted by Wayne Davis The engine I'm calling $15k? Its right there in black and white for everyone to read. I didn't make the number up!! This engine is not allowed in our series

So now the MWR D2 legal Ecotec is not allowed? Why? So an engine that meets all the rules and has been legal since the inception of the D2 rules is illegal because someone pointed out it costs $15k? How convenient....

I compared apples to apples. New D2 to new Badger. The fact is they are basically the same price. The difference is one performs better and has better reliability due to better internal parts. I have NO IDEA what you mean about "NEW" D-2....there are STOCK engines out there that is over 8 years old...I have 1 of them and one just won the 2018 GDN

New as in not used. I have no idea how that had to be explained.

You haven't made a dime but have you or are you planning to receive a free or reduced cost engine that is completely rebuilt and not a junk yard special like you want others to use? Why is it good enough for others to use junk yard specials when the owners of the series receive free or reduced price rebuilt engines? I have not made a damn dime because I give it ALL back to the racer...I have NEVER received or am NOT planning on receiving anything for my cars so you need to quit with the he said she said crap and get YOUR facts straight, unlike others do. And Yes I have and do run "JUNK YARD" engines...2015 championship was won with a totally stock 2.0 focus from Rusty Acres I bought for $375.00. I am running a 2.4 ecotec with the stock intake and plenum for this year..again get your facts right

So the question was whether you have received or are planning to receive a free or reduced cost engine. You have denied that. At the end of the 2017 season I talked KMOD into offering Badger legal Honda engines because we need more capable engine builders. I started letting people know about KMOD. In just a matter of weeks Wayne contacted Marquis, the owner of KMOD about a free or reduced cost engine. I know this because Marquis himself told me so when I specifically asked him after he started asking me questions about the Southern States series and how it differs from Badger....I'm sure we will get 1000 excuses and various spins, or even outright lies on how this did not happen...





This is called unethical behavior. People who own a series should not be allowed to have a car in said series, period. This is why racing series should be non-profit with an elected board of directors who can be voted out by the members. Now I'm officially done talking about this crap.

[MRAY3]

Originally Posted by LJC77 Pretty sure poweri realized that badger's rules were way easier and faster to tech and anyone who has raced with those guys knows there is lot less crying going on up there. Badger is doing thier own completely different deal, shouldn't even be discussed in the same sentence as any D2 club.

Best quote on this entire message board!

[Wayne Davis]

Originally Posted by Ray3 So now the MWR D2 legal Ecotec is not allowed? Why? So an engine that meets all the rules and has been legal since the inception of the D2 rules is illegal because someone pointed out it costs $15k? How convenient.... New as in not used. I have no idea how that had to be explained. So the question was whether you have received or are planning to receive a free or reduced cost engine. You have denied that. At the end of the 2017 season I talked KMOD into offering Badger legal Honda engines because we need more capable engine builders. I started letting people know about KMOD. In just a matter of weeks Wayne contacted Marquis, the owner of KMOD about a free or reduced cost engine. I know this because Marquis himself told me so when I specifically asked him after he started asking me questions about the Southern States series and how it differs from Badger....I'm sure we will get 1000 excuses and various spins, or even outright lies on how this did not happen... This is called unethical behavior. People who own a series should not be allowed to have a car in said series, period. This is why racing series should be non-profit with an elected board of directors who can be voted out by the members. Now I'm officially done talking about this crap.

"Now I'm officially done talking about this crap."
THANK GOD you are done....AGAIN ....as you were done 8 post back...but than.... you are self-proclaimed GOD's GIFT to midget racing...


"So the question was whether you have received or are planning to receive a free or reduced cost engine. You have denied that."
I do not own that car to began with....Darrin Davis owns the 92...Did he buy ..again BUY the KMOD engine? And if he did get sponsorship from KMOD for his car what would it had mattered?? and yes he is my son and I do try to help him get sponsorship...of course your dad or brother never help you do that did they?...you spurt you month off about everyone here that does not conform to your ideas or delete them like you did on the IMRA post...what's even worse... nope not gonna say...

The $15,000 dollar engine is dry sumped...Dry sump is not allow in our series...of course you knew that but wanted to start crap anyway

Oh yea...Happy Easter

[MRAY3]

[QUOTE

The $15,000 dollar engine is dry sumped...Dry sump is not allow in our series...of course you knew that but wanted to start crap anyway

[/QUOTE]

Wayne, I have been asked by several people if I would build them a D-2 engine. I have turned them all down, partly because nobody seems to know what the rules are day by day. Now you claim dry sump engines are not legal with your D-2 series, but your own Gater Dirt Nationals flyer for 2018 says wet or dry sump is ok. Which is it? Do you tech cams? If so, what method and or tools do you use? What are the legal cam specs for each engine (including the motorcycle engines?) Do you consider any manufacturing and/or measuring tolerances when determining the legality of the cams? What is the maximum compression ratio for each engine (including motorcycle engines?)