[revjimk]

USAC format always confuses me... Haubstadt Hustler: USAC rules say top 6 qualifiers who advance thru heats are inverted in A main. Ballou qualified fastest, Stockon 6th. So I would think Stockon starts on the pole & Ballou starts 6th. But Ballou started 10th & Stockon 11th.... whaaa???
Or does this event have its own format? If anyone knows , please explain....

[7horse]

If it was Courtney or Windom or one of the other "Bros" they woulda started up front

[Chief Wahoo]

Originally Posted by revjimk USAC format always confuses me... Haubstadt Hustler: USAC rules say top 6 qualifiers who advance thru heats are inverted in A main. Ballou qualified fastest, Stockon 6th. So I would think Stockon starts on the pole & Ballou starts 6th. But Ballou started 10th & Stockon 11th.... whaaa??? Or does this event have its own format? If anyone knows , please explain....

Join the club. I think if you have a degree in calculus you still wouldn’t be able to figure it out. I just drink beer and enjoy the race anymore.

[Tim Clauson]

Originally Posted by 7horse If it was Courtney or Windom or one of the other "Bros" they woulda started up front

It was an MSCS format. Rules found here

http://mscssprints.com/uploads/pdfs/2018-rules-mscs.pdf

Most every series have their series rules posted on their website and with really very little effort they can be found. (Not to say that even then it is 100% clear)

Courtney Qualified 3rd or 4th overall, under normal USAC rules would of started either 3rd or 4th. He started 16th under this format, that blows the "Bros" theory.

I agree that a National Series should have a consistent set of rules & Procedures that are adhered to at every race they go to. Including optional formats if they are going too be used at anytime during the current season.

Tim Clauson

[Rob11]

They mentioned multiple times during the Hustler that they were racing uncer MSCS rules. They defined the difference between those rules and the USAC rules at least once, and I thought I heard them state the differences one other time. "The "Bros" comment was completely unwarranted.

[Big Mike 7]

Originally Posted by 7horse If it was Courtney or Windom or one of the other "Bros" they woulda started up front

this guy sounds like a true Robert boo hop fan.

[JakeCroxton]

Here is an explanation of the USAC Format...and the MSCS format...from nerds like me that study such a thing...

USAC
1. Pill Draw sets up Time Trial Order...low numbers are first out, high numbers are last out (yes, this isn't the same everywhere) - in the event of a car showing up after cutoff, extra pills are drawn to "insert" a car where it "would have drawn" (those are usually the out-of-place-looking numbers you see on the spreadsheet above the actual pill draw data). Why? Because drivers would do such a thing as to "forget to draw so they would go last" in case track conditions would, in their opinion, be better later. (See Closed Loophole)
2. Time Trials are single-car and set the heat race lineups, staggered by time with an applied invert of 6 positions (whether there are three or four heats)
3. In the Heat Race, you must transfer (or race to a position that WOULD transfer if there is no Semi-Feature - 4 from 4 Heats or 5 from 3 Heats) to be eligible for the top 6 feature invert
4. The Semi-Feature and subsequent mains are lined up by qualifying time (7 transfer if 3 Heats, 6 transfer if 4 Heats)
5. The feature is lined up by qualifying time...if you transferred out of the Heat Race (or met the requirement to race to where the transfer position would have been), you are eligible for the Top 6 Invert...everyone else is lined up heads-up by time, sans the Provisionals

MSCS Format (which is the same format is Kokomo...you can call it "the Kokomo format" or the "MSCS format" - both are the same, minus the Kokomo straight redraw versus the MSCS Inversion Pill, see below)
1. Pill Draw sets up Time Trial Order...the draw is staggered...so low numbers are in the front and the high numbers are in the back (yes, this isn't the same everywhere) - in the event of a car showing up after cutoff, the car is inserted in the first open position.
2. The cars practice and qualify together in the assigned group - those are the cars they are racing against in the heat races (which is different than some other organizations where the groups are assigned for practice mainly to prevent foot-draggers from all wanting to practice in the last group, hence delaying the show because nobody wants to be first)
2a. Any car that causes an obstruction is eliminated from the remainder of the session
3. The heat races are lined up based on qualifying time with an invert of 4...generally, a specific number of laps is given to every group in practice to give each group the same chance at the track based on track size
4. Once you get past the heats, everything is lined up heads up based on race finish staggered by race...so Heat 1 winner is seeded to the pole of the feature, Heat 2 winner is seeded to the outside pole, etc.
5. All preliminary mains are lined up heads-up based on how you finished the heat race
6. If there are 3 Heats, Mo sends a guy down to the Heat 1 winner with a bag of pills...0, 4, or 6...this is the A-Feature invert...if 4 Heats, it's 0, 4, 6, 8; if 5 Heats, it's 0, 4, 6, 8, 10
7. The feature is lined up staggered by Heat Race finish with the applied Invert, then Semi transfers, then provisionals

Over the years, I've seen and studied the following formats, mainly because I've either kept track in the stands or had to use them:
1. Progressive (or heads up racing...lined up by draw and the top so-many transfer)
2. ASCS Passing Points 55-52 down by three with 1.5 passing points factor
3. World Dirt Racing League passing points 59-55-51 down by 4 with 1.76 passing points factor
4. USMTS Modifieds (I don't think they were first but they're who I remember) 59-55-51 down by 4 with a 1.5 passing points factor
5. IMCA Inverted Point Average (full field Heat Invert, invert 10 or 12 in feature based on points - think Bloomington RaceSavers)
6. Old World of Outlaws you get your time back with a heat invert with a Dash
7. Hav-A-Tampa / UDTRA Late Models you qualify and start heads up in your heat race and heads up in the feature based on heat race (see also today's World of Outlaws)
8. MOWA Sprints passing points but the heat race winner has to be in the dash even if he's not in the top 6 in points
9. MOWA Sprints time trials (get your time back for the feature) but there's in invert pill for the dash
10. World of Outlaws current format with a Dash (heads up with potential for A/B group if 4 Heats or more)
11. Summernationals Late Models with group hot lap qualifying where draw determines your heat race and you qualify against those cars
12. Summernationals A/B Group where you split the time trial field in half for 4-heats (flights)
13. PA Posse Handicapping where it's similar to IMCA Point Average but it's based on MONEY WON with a deeper invert
14. NASCAR Weekly Racing Series 4-week ROLLING Inverted Point Average
15. Qualifying with groups
16. Qualifying that's staggered and against the whole field but in Hot Laps
17. Qualifying that's staggered and against the group I'm in but they go out half at a time
18. Belleville Nationals snake heat races
19. Kokomo Smackdown King of the Hill with standard heat races
20. Chili Bowl Double Passing Points with Qualifiers and Last Chance Races
21. Chili Bowl Passing Points with everyone in a qualifier (see BC39)
22. Retro-Summernationals where the Top 6 in Quals made the dash with the current SN Points Leader, the UMP National Points Leader, and the UMP Track Points Leader all automatically made the dash and pos. 7-9 were the pole of each heat (yes, for simply doing nothing)
23. IMCA Draw/Redraw
24. Retro-USAC where there was an 8-car invert and ONLY the top 32 made the Heat Races
25. The Knoxville Nationals Qualifying Night format
26. The old World of Outlaws two-day format where they locked 4 on the preliminary night into the next night's dash, counted for half points, and didn't count it toward the actual win total until Ross Wece went back through and corrected it all
27. The Super DIRTcar Series Modifieds Syracuse format where they race heat races but also have lock-ins based on winning a race at another track six months ago...even if you're 44th in qualifying

Every format has its aspects people like and dislike - and trust me when I say I feel like I've heard it all, with varying degrees of validity to whether the likes and dislikes actually affect the racing seen on-track...in the end, it's simple tastes and preferences. We do however need to do a better job explaining how formats work - a lot of announcers that I work with are great at that...but anything past a simple draw-and-go heads-up format is usually something you can't physically see on-track. So it needs explained. It doesn't do anybody any good to say "well, we followed our format" but nobody knows what said format is. But I have also learned that if there's something that seems funny with a format...it's probably there because someone tried to find a loophole and someone had to close said loophole...to agonizing detail.

[Flatheadhunter]

Wow! That's alot pf info

[Longtime sprinter]

That’s like reading a disclosure when you purchase a cell phone or something😬 I just look for the accept or agree box at the end, check it and go on. Guess that’s also why I just watch the race, don’t really care where they start.

[jim goerge]

When I worked MSCS there was many a night I"d be going though the rule book lol Sometimes things got a little