[nowingsjeff]

My wife & I went to Winchester, VA this year to watch ARDC midgets. On the card with them was the VSS 305 Sprintcars. It was the only time I ever saw winged 305 sprintscars and truthfully if I never see them again it wouldn't bother me. During 305 hot laps my wife leans over to me with a confused look on her face. I asked her what was wrong and she said she didn't understand why they weren't gassing it when the flagman was giving them the green for hot laps. I told her they were hot lapping, but I don't think she believed me though as the small motors just couldn't pull that big kite & big tires around the track. The motor were screaming & the cars were creeping along, it was very weird. Thumbs down on winged 305's as far as I'm concerned.

[Charles Nungester]

I've never liked limited winged racing. As you said, all the horsepower is needed just to keep the cars at any speed.

I seen the Hurrying Hoosier limited sprint show a few years back in Indiana and like them. However someone on here said it's cost were not that much savings vs normal sprints.

I think a good 360 NW class could work and be very thrillling for drivers and fans alike, Why not make a 360 crate program. Set tire, shock and wheel sizes and let the drivers prove their stuff and setup abilities?

Chuck, who says Staab won his last Lburg championship with something like a 380 cid motor.

What would be the real reason for someone that already has a 410 switch to a 305. or i missed something and you were wanting to run two classes. but i can tell one thing all the drivers would be pissed if you made them run a 305 after running the 410. You might as well tell all the drivers that they have to run TQ's and never get to run a sprinter again. And i would put money on that if the track is heavy no passing at all. What ever happened to bring the best thing you can and race it. No matter what it is. 85' non downtube or 07' drc. just race and deal with it.

Having run 305's on pavement there would be no sense starting a dying class. 305 bolcks are becoming hard to find. quality 305 blocks even harder. the siamesed cylinder walls crack easily and the pistons are oddball and cost more. They are fine on pavement with wings but have to pull too hard on dirt with wings. A crate or spec 350 class with smaller injection and a gear rule may be the way to go. As far as affordability. We won a few shows and a championship with a garage built 2000 buck 305 versus the 25,000 dollar variety. As for 410's with wings draggin them down. HOSS and AVSS pavement 410's are the fastest short track shows in the world, With the down side being, You crash You die. 180 + at Winchester and 160+ at Salem You won't see them rubbing,

[nonwingfan33]

Originally Posted by sprint4 First, as a poor boy racer, I must say that I personally do not see this as the ultimate solution. While a motor is expensive, it is typically a one-time investment.

I think this is the main focus of this thread. We are able to run our sprint on a very low budget, but the up front expense of a 410 motor was something we had to save for. And we still do not have a $25,000 motor. The yearly maintance on the motor is not much more than the 600's we used to run. We still do not have a 900 hp motor, but what we do have will run any local show and some USAC events.

This brings me to a questions. Do any of the engine builders out there have a lease to buy plan? As a owner I think it would be great, as an engine builder I think it would be a huge risk. If there was one, I think you would see more guys moving up because of being able to spread that up front expense out.
I have heard of people renting motors to run the Tulsa Shootout in the 600 classes, but have not heard of it for a 410.

Brian

[thebus79h]

Snyder used to do leases, and really, it's a great way to go, but definatly not the answer.

I don't think they're takling about getting rid of 410's, but adding 305's to the mix for the folks that are racing micro's, but want to go to a sprint car, but cannot afford it, and run a support class for them. Would it work, probably not, but for the people that think they are royally piss ass slow, you haven't seen them on the right track. Fremont Ohio for a few years they used to have the SOD vs. the 305's, and you know what, the 305's give the 360's all they can handle on that track, why? it's flat and slick, you put these things on a half mile like THAT or Knoxville, and you're clocking them with a sundial.

Oh, and for anybody that thinks running a sprint car is just as expensive or cheaper than a micro, you're crazy. My dad thought this to, but when you start tearing up stuff, then you really realize what it's all about. Plus, in the micro ranks, there is to many idiots driving the price of engines up, you don't need 8500 to win, a couple guys I drive for at themost have 3k in theres, and are just as fast as anybody there, and in fact, one of them won the ponits title at Peru.

[Seadog]

Originally Posted by thebus79h Snyder used to do leases, and really, it's a great way to go, but definatly not the answer. I don't think they're takling about getting rid of 410's, but adding 305's to the mix for the folks that are racing micro's, but want to go to a sprint car, but cannot afford it, and run a support class for them. Would it work, probably not, but for the people that think they are royally piss ass slow, you haven't seen them on the right track. Fremont Ohio for a few years they used to have the SOD vs. the 305's, and you know what, the 305's give the 360's all they can handle on that track, why? it's flat and slick, you put these things on a half mile like THAT or Knoxville, and you're clocking them with a sundial. Oh, and for anybody that thinks running a sprint car is just as expensive or cheaper than a micro, you're crazy. My dad thought this to, but when you start tearing up stuff, then you really realize what it's all about. Plus, in the micro ranks, there is to many idiots driving the price of engines up, you don't need 8500 to win, a couple guys I drive for at themost have 3k in theres, and are just as fast as anybody there, and in fact, one of them won the ponits title at Peru.

Yes, that's what I was getting at. Is 305 a good way to go for a beginner in sprints? I seem to be hearing more about 305's and I was thinking about if it would help out the little guy. But what local track op wants to start a new weekly series without any support? Is there enough interest out there to make a success out of it for all concerned?

Thanks for all the input.

[jonesy112]

A spec 305 class would not work in the long term, plain and simple. The more rules that are made for a class, the more money it takes to get around the rules. I know that the majority of folks on here are non-wing fans, but take the 360 winged class at knoxville. That was started in the 80's as a low budget alternative to the 410 class....20 years later they are very close to the cost of a 410 and race for $1250 to win, instead of the $3k that a weekly 410 show pays. Sounds like a winning deal for the promotors and a losing one for the racers. A good used 410 at k'ville will cost you 20K, a good 360 will cost you 16k. But with a 360 or even a 305, the steel block is not reparible....once you crack the block you have a HUGE cost to put your engine guts in a new block. That isnt saving anyone any money.

Now they are talking about taking away the 410's and running 360's and 305's on a weekly basis, with the 305 as a support entry division. And guess what, in the first year there people are already spending close to 20k for a new 305.

Talk about all the spec rules you want, but big money will always prevail. You can assemble 10 motors using all the same parts, and 1 will be flat out better than the other nine. If you dont believe me, ask your motor builder. So the big money will pay to get 10 new motors and sell the 9 weak ones where low budget larry can only buy one. But Larry cant do anything to make up for the lack of HP since wheels shocks and tires would be spec. This is true in the ASCS spec 360 class. A good set of ASCS spec heads will cost you close to 10k, because they flow better than the other spec heads.

Sprint car racing will never be a poor mans sport. Dont try to divide up the sprint car base with multiple classes and making rules that will obsolete what the low-budget guys have already purchased (open motors, shocks, wheels). If i wanted to race in a spec class or even watch one, I would turn nascar on or but a crate late-model.

Maybe we just need to open up the rules and let the backyard engineer be able to make his own parts and cars to save some money, and build motors out of what he has laying around. That seemed to work for years.

[petey]

Down at "The Ditch" in West Memphis they race 305's both winged and wingless throughout the year. Two weeks ago they had what they called their 1st annual Grassroots Nats. which paid out $1000 to win for wingless 305's. They drew a pretty decent car count as well with 20+ entries. Having now seen them race twice with out teh wings they put on a good show.

I know that K'Ville ran a few winged 305 events this year. I know it's hard to imagine those cars getting around that big 'ol track but I guess they can.

It was mentioned on another board a month or so back that someone invested $17,000 into a 305 engine. Racing is just expensive no if's and's or but's.

[Charles Nungester]

What about getting rid of the 410 limit all together? If someone can make a 428 cheaper and faster, Why not?

Chuck, just thinkin that all the moneys going to push one engine to new limits.