[DAD]

Originally Posted by revjimk You're being too nice. I just read the whole thread & you didn't say anything offensive, at all

Rev

We all tend to get a little myopic with our own ideas,I know I do. We spent a lot of time convincing racers on the D2 Idea. A Midget Is a Midget and by any other name they pretty much run all about the same. We still have hard feelings about chain drive and motor cycle powered Midgets. As well as stock block vs. purpose built motors. Tranny man mentioned about Midgets raced in earlier days. The size of the car and wheels and the displacement of the "Power Plant" were stipulated and the racer were left to their own devices to power their race car. He said that the Offy and Ford V8 60 won out and were pretty much the engines to race for a long time. Then somebody saw a little Chevy II motor and said, heck that little Iron Duke should make a great race motor, and it did. By this time engine specs were getting complicated. Then racers do what racers do they took the "Iron" out of the Iron Duke and power plants started to escalate in cost. Development kept developing and somebody though to them selves that the Ford Pinto could work out good in a race car. Well it did, however now the only thing Ford in that engine was the hair springs on the valve train. Then Chrysler and then Toyota decided to get into Midget racing because it was such a lucrative opportunity for them. Well that pretty much forced the little guy out of Midget racing.

USAC tried to make Midget racing less expensive with their Focus Midget. Their only problem is they wanted to furnish the engine and it was slow as heck and pretty expensive for the racer. It flopped. Another guy decided that the Ecotec would be a good platform for a Midget Engine. I'll be darned he was right. It was inexpensive, it ran like a bat out of Heck. At that time Midget race cars was just a hard sell.

We attended the Tulsa Shootout the first year that 1200cc Mini Sprints were invited. We finished second place that year. However we only could get about 25 or 30 cars signed in to race. The Ecotec Midgets were also their that year. They also had less than a field of cars. There is nothing more boring to a racer than sitting around all day to race so I watched and clocked the Ecotec's. They sounded a lot cooler than the Mini Sprints BUT they were turning identical laps. "A Light bulb" went off in my head and I thought why don't we race these things together!

The week after we returned from Tulsa I think I started a post on right here on IOW seeing if there was any one out their with the same Idea. There was a guy down In Florida racing Mini Sprints in the sand and the sand was tearing up expensive chains at an alarming rate. He wanted to just make a shaft drive 1000cc Mini Sprint and make it legal in Mini Sprint racing.

After taking several months convincing him that a Mini Sprint was just another form of a Midget with a different power plant and drive arrangement. He was really Hard Headed, and I think he probably still is. Anyhow Wayne gets his hands on a Focus Midget and begins racing it with other racers Mini sprints. The problem was still car count and selling promoters on the Idea, and that requires cars to get race dates.

Wayne persevered on and eventually persuaded USAC to put his cars in as a support class for their Winter Races down south. His car count was not great but I think USAC saw something there. During all this time we are still discussing this Odd Ball Midget on IOW. Sometimes we got pretty carried away in our discussions.

Montpelier had developed their rules and implemented their class, and it was working. Kenny Brown of PowerI also saw promise in this class and approached Wayne about sanctioning the class. Well here come the "Rule Makers". Rule makers love rules and sometimes make rules just to show people that they can. Sometimes rules are a good thing and sometimes rules tend to bind things up.

We had always envisioned the class as a stock block engine class. Now here is where we get into conjecture. The small block Chevy was introduced in the 1950's and remained in production until the early 2000's. It was always a low performance design for racing and required a lot of add on parts like cranks, rods, pistons, cylinder block and cylinder heads to be competitive. After investing in one of these engines racers repaired them when they broke and did not want to see things change and effect their investment. A racer would never just replace the whole engine when it blew up and this concept or repair instead of replace still exist today.

The EPA for all it's faults has caused the manufactures to build smaller and more performance oriented motors. Machining and manufacturing techniques have allowed them to improve on their designs yearly. The rule makers because they make rules settled on a few "Legal" motors for D2 Midgets. Racers are forced to buy old worn ot motors and rebuild them to race, when in fact new motors have come on line that obsolete the older motors, But they are not legal to race.

Racers counter with the fact that they need Heavy Duty race parts to withstand the rigors of racing, so now here come the special built multi thousand race motor for the class. I would counter when a 4 cylinder 2000cc motor is installed in a hot rod passenger car that produces 250-350 Horsepower it alreay has some pretty Heavy duty components already installed in it and could be competitive right out of the Wrecking yard and all the time making for improved racing for the racer.

I would be the last person to try and kill this class of racing. I have a lot of "Bull" invested in it. I would just like for the rule makers to lighten up a tad and open up the rules just a little bit for the inventive racers. I don.t see any cut down straight eight Buick's but I do see a Haybusa or two, maybe a turbo charged 4 cylinder and maybe even a little V6. The only thing I know for sure "Competition" makes every thing better, and who knows, with the new thermal coatings applied to the exhaust ports of the Ford V8 60 to prevent them from heating up so much they might be competitive again.

[Roy Bleckert]

Originally Posted by DAD Rev It Would be a great world if>> "We could all agree to dis-agree with one another" and be Respectful of one another's ideas.

And spare us these long winded threads NO WAY DAD BwaHahaaa !!! All seriousness aside < I do not see much changing, which is a shame, cuz in a lot of ways over the years Midgets pushed the innovation envelope in dirt track racing for many decades of the past !!!

[The Old Coyote]

[QUOTE=DAD;469046]Rev

"Well here come the "Rule Makers". Rule makers love rules and sometimes make rules just to show people that they can"

Dire Straights song Telegraph Road: "First came the churches, then came the schools, then came the Lawyers, then came the rules!"

LOL

[darnall]

Originally Posted by DAD https://www.indianaopenwheel.com/alb...pictureid=3086 Now here is an inexpensive motor for D2 Midget racing

Now come on guys..... if ANYBODY actually read anything other than the price on this ad you would all realize that there is no way this engine ever COULD or SHOULD be used or allowed in a midget.

Never Ever Ever Ever Ever Never...

Not in the last 75 years or in the next 75 years... It shouldn't be legal, shouldn't have a rule written to allow it to be legal, and if it is ever installed in any midget roller that car should no longer be called a midget... maybe call it a halfsprint or uprightdirtindyroadsterlookinspecmegamicroracer... .

Don't know what I mean??? Can't figure out why I am so ANTI OFFY-IN-HOUSER??? Read the ad fellas... the $1,000 pricetag doesn't include.......

A CARBURETOR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Carbs are for weedeaters, gokarts and streetstocks...just like nitro-nitrous belongs only in drag cars, turbos only belong on indy cars and diesel trucks, and EFI only belongs on formula 1 cars and isuzu troopers..

A REAL MIDGET uses FUEL INJECTION, REAL FUEL INJECTION with exactly 4 and only 4 velocity stacks, 4 pieces of brass tubing stuffed somewhere between the air filter and piston, approx 200 lineal feet of various size hoses, and 27 tiny brass or aluminum canisters full of springs, spacers, rubber gaskets and more pieces of brass with a little hole. And the only way a REAL MIDGET can get fuel to this marvel of modern engineering is with a REAL fuel pump... a pump that pumps more as it spins faster... a pump with little fanblades and gears in it that is directly linked to a rotating internal engine component.


Any racecar with this $1,000 engine, no matter what it LOOKS like to the fans, is not a midget and if anybody allows it to race as a midget it will cheapen the rich and storied history that is the last 15 years of midget racing and will only confuse the fans more than they already must be.

Carburetor!!! Sheesh.. whats wrong with people these days???

[Aces&Eights]

Originally Posted by darnall Now come on guys..... if ANYBODY actually read anything other than the price on this ad you would all realize that there is no way this engine ever COULD or SHOULD be used or allowed in a midget. Carburetor!!! Sheesh.. whats wrong with people these days???

Don't they have, "Carb Day" at Indy?
I like carbs, why can't they have a place at the table?
Same with sprints, love to see a tunnel ram out there...

With an MC engine do you have to run a chain or is there a way to hook up a shaft, like DAD mentioned? Would that be legal?

[Roy Bleckert]

Originally Posted by Aces&Eights Don't they have, "Carb Day" at Indy? I like carbs, why can't they have a place at the table? Same with sprints, love to see a tunnel ram out there... With an MC engine do you have to run a chain or is there a way to hook up a shaft, like DAD mentioned? Would that be legal?

You could hook a MC eng to a drive shaft/QC, would defeat the purpose of chain drive. The advantages of chain drive> more rear wheel HP , less weight , cheaper, @ the risk of being a smart ass, hooking a MC eng to a drive line/QC setup , reminds me of something the govMint would do. Let's drive up the cost , make it fatter and less efficient , Ya that's Da Ticket BwaHahahaaaaaa!!! <( humor alert for all the over sensitive types )

[jjones752]

Aces,

As I mentioned earlier, a Kenyon Midget does run a 1200 Yamaha through a torque tube to a Q/C; they do run with us on occasion at Montpelier when their USSA schedule allows but typically aren't as competitive as the chain-drive MC-powered cars.
Strictly speaking I don't think they are D2/Speed2 legal as the technique of connecting to the torque tube via a u-joint off of the countershaft puts the crankshaft too far to the left (D2 rules mandate a 1" offset for shaft-driven cars).

[Aces&Eights]

Originally Posted by jjones752 Aces, As I mentioned earlier, a Kenyon Midget does run a 1200 Yamaha through a torque tube to a Q/C; they do run with us on occasion at Montpelier when their USSA schedule allows but typically aren't as competitive as the chain-drive MC-powered cars. Strictly speaking I don't think they are D2/Speed2 legal as the technique of connecting to the torque tube via a u-joint off of the countershaft puts the crankshaft too far to the left (D2 rules mandate a 1" offset for shaft-driven cars).

Ah, the rules. Oh well thanks for the response, I appreciate it. Does anyone allow stock block/head V6's to compete anywhere? Like Buick 3800 or GM 4.3's

[DAD]

Originally Posted by Aces&Eights Ah, the rules. Oh well thanks for the response, I appreciate it. Does anyone allow stock block/head V6's to compete anywhere? Like Buick 3800 or GM 4.3's

Ace

That is the reason for my soap box to the point of being "Obnoxious", I do however try to remain "Civil". The 3.8 would be out dated and a little heavy. Ford used a little V6 in the Lincoln Continental a few years that would have been Ideal. There are a lot of new motors that would make great inexpensive additions to the class, BUT for the rules. I have one of the ford motors in my garage but lack the ability now to make anything out of it (Read Old and Worn out).

If a guy was interested in a V6 Midget as I was? Montpelier would welcome the motor with open arms. Harold did say that I could not put a 410 in a Midget frame and be welcome howeve.

[48M]

Ray Boyles had two midgets run the Ford Taurus SHO 6 cylinder engine with the All Star Midget Series in Kansas City the last several years. He sold one midget over the winter but I believe both will still be running in the Kansas City area this summer. Ray also takes these cars to the Chili Bowl each year. The All Star Midget Series in Kansas City runs very limited rules. This year they will be known as the POWRi All Star Midgets.