[Roy Bleckert]

Originally Posted by LEADERS EDGE Ok....how are they making the power? What is the life expectancy of the internals? Drag racing isn't 1/4 mile dirt track racing. The motor is subjected to different forces of sustained rpms and being bogged down on the lower ranges with rapid changes in rpms. I would be interested in getting the information from motors used in a dirt track environment

The HonDoo K series & S2000 engine have been used in Midget racing in the US & NZ , the reliability I do not believe has been much of a issue in Midgets, it is a very well engineered & crafted production engine IMO , it just needs a slightly more help than the current USAC rules allow to get it closer to a level playing field with current Midget equip.

[DAD]

Originally Posted by LEADERS EDGE Ok....how are they making the power? What is the life expectancy of the internals? Drag racing isn't 1/4 mile dirt track racing. The motor is subjected to different forces of sustained rpms and being bogged down on the lower ranges with rapid changes in rpms. I would be interested in getting the information from motors used in a dirt track environment

Leader

Thanks for supporting Montpelier Speedway. I attended the first meeting Harold had in Indy when he was seeking imput and advice. He took all this bull that was flowing around the table, digested it came up with a set of rules, and I'll be darned they work pretty darned good.

Stock block midget will come. Now for whatever it is worth we just got done with a show that had maybe 75 serious balls to the wall Midget racers and 250 guys in it for just the fun of it. It seemed like it worked pretty good also.

There will never be 100 cars on the road going to National Shows all over the United States. There are other factors that go into whether a guy travels or stays close to home and becomes a weekend warrior. Just a guess but I would bet that a National touring team's Motor expenditures is probably 20% of the budget. Transportation, wages, tires lodging taking up the major expense. So while we are sitting around worrying about them they just go about their own business of being a traveling team.

The guys on the road probably make up less than 10% of the total Midget racing population. The weekend warriors the rest, while the weekend teams try to make do on hand me down motors and sometime even tires and other expendables.

If we could get a good stock block program in place that would work for them they might save enough to allow a few more teams on the road again also but it won't be drastic change.

The growth I am looking for is a growth in the weekend division, I would not go on the Road show if you give me 3 cars, 6 engines a transporter and a crew and payed my expenses and a 6 figure salary>>>Sorry I like what I am doing right now.

Since it was pretty today Doug and I went out and spent a few hours cleaning the car up from our last race at Du Quoin. Mini sprints for us is low maintenance racing and we like it that way. After all I got a life, sitting right here on my dead butt and posting on the IOW.

I started out racing quarter midgets back in the 50's, we always had classes. I can't figure out why everybody wants to make one thing fit everybody. I wouldn't want to start my kid out racing guys like Rico with years and years of seat time under his belt. I would be looking for something a little slower and cheaper. Why not a stock block class like EchoTec.

I am an observer> some of my first observations were at the Indy 500 in the "Snake Pit". An observer could observe almost any thing in that place. We have been racing Mini Sprints for about 20 years and I observed that they were about as cheap, easy to maintain and fast as any open wheel car out there even in our 600cc form. A couple of years ago I was fortunate to observe an EchoTec race at the Shootout. I observed those darned little car and us were pretty close together performance wise. Still observing I noticed they perform pretty good in an almost stock form. There are guys out there saying they need rods, pistons, valves and cams to really work. I am not to sure of their reasoning right now but I guess I need to do a little more observing.

I also noticed over the last several years neither class had substantial car counts alone. It seemed to me if the groups loosened up their rules a little to allow cross class racing they could help one another. I know their are groups out there that do this and that is a good thing.

I think Echotec's can be inexpensive or expensive. The budget guys will work on salvage parts and probably have $2500.00 in their Long Block, the better funded racer might have $6000.00 or more in a brand new long block crate motor with all the "TRICK" racing modifications installed by an engine builder. A little much for me but what the heck.

We have allowed after market cams, valves, springs, rods and pistons at the DuQuoin race in February however when I stick my bore scope down them holes I do not want to find indications of machine or grinding work. That is not to say that I am against porting, heck no but not in a so called stock class We would call this first class "Modified Stock". If we want to port lets work on another class lets call that the "B" modified class.

My next class would be the "Double A" class. This is where I change gears. I do not know why people get so hung up on 4 cylinders inline and slightly less than 3000 cc motors. The new Hot Rods out there on the street today are V6's that are around 3500 to 3800cc's. Set you displacement limit to 3500 cc or less. Specify stock block stock head with no welding or machining to change basic engineering designs and strengths. Everything else is wide open do what you can afford and have fun.

PS Roy I bought my wife one of them HonDoo lawn mower's 25 years ago because she could start it and it pulled itself around. Twenty Five years later she is still cutting the grass and starting that thing. She is now on Social Security. They have both very good investments.

Honest Dad himself

[bobby01]

Originally Posted by Roy Bleckert I think the key word you used is Kid , You & I were once Kids & I do not know about you , but I did a lot of dumb things when I was a Kid , Does his eng have EFI on it ? I may have a idea or two up my sleeve to make it work or I could be out in left field , the SoCal Drag race crowd are putting less than 10K in 600 + HP HonDoo engines , I think it is very possible to Make the HonDoo or other production engines work @ much less cost & be competitive with current equipment , that may precipitate a transition to a further opportunities to reduce costs down the line , if it is not tried we will never know !

Roy
I guess I should not have called him a kid he's late 30's early 40's and yes he has EFI injection on it. I would say to get 600+ horsepower it's not naturally aspirated and I haven't seen any dirt track midget organizations that allow turbos or superchargers.
The point I was trying to make was that when the professional engine builders get involved the cost of engines go through the roof.

[Roy Bleckert]

Originally Posted by bobby01 Roy I guess I should not have called him a kid he's late 30's early 40's and yes he has EFI injection on it. I would say to get 600+ horsepower it's not naturally aspirated and I haven't seen any dirt track midget organizations that allow turbos or superchargers. The point I was trying to make was that when the professional engine builders get involved the cost of engines go through the roof.

Ya 600+ HP is with a turbo , I think it shows how reliable the engine is @ a 350/400 HP NA application , & ya when the pro builders get into things it can spin outta control fast , but the younger set that has grown up with these engines are pretty crafty in what they can do with these engines with little $$$, they have got me to approach things differently, but I hear what your sayin , it all looks good on paper , but it can be a whole new can of worms when rubber meets the road, then again nothing ventured nothing gained !

[DAD]

So now Ford has replaced their Hot Rod V6 motors with something they call the "Echo Boost" a little 4 cylinder high compression,direct (combustion chamber) injection, forced (Turbo) induction engine. Very efficient and powerful for it's size.

Where does that put things? The manufactures are moving a head at light speed and racers are stuck back somewhere in the 50's.

Honest Dad himself

[darnall]

Originally Posted by bobby01 I've been following this discussion since it started and I got a couple questions. With all the turmoil that's been going on in my area with the lightning sprints I started looking the Ecotec deal. First I read where Dustin Darnell said the Ecotec engines cost $1000. so how did these engines go from that to costing $8000. from Zero Motorsports and then $15000. from Revolution racing. I'm not saying that they are not worth that but how it's all ready getting out of control. I've been around the racing game a long time and keeping cost under control has been the big problem since the days of the Offy. I hope that someone can come up with a solution before we all go broke. The problem with automotive style engines is that car companies leave to much on the table to go get and it costs a lot of money to turn them into race engines and low mileage motorcycle engines are getting harder to get. So what is the answer??? Bobby Layne 2014 MLS Champion

Not sure which post you are referring to but if I said under 1,000 it was a typo that should have said under 10,000....

But, now that you mention it... there was at least one car at the shootout that had an ecotec installed and race ready for about 1 grand...but to do that required use of some parts they already had laying around and a TON of elbow grease and fabrication.

[Wayne Davis]

This has been a good read with alot of replies and views. One thing that you have to understand is the NATIONAL midget pkg is here to stay. D-II is NOT going to replace them in any shape or form. What we attempting to do is give racers that can't afford a national type of engine the opportunity to come race up front within their budget and be competitive with everyone else and not just a back market.

By no means are we trying to take away what others like, such as the wings on mini sprints, but we are trying to be compatible to race each other as a whole. If we can get everyone on the same page/rules pkg and be compatible with each our series (ALL) will grow leaps and bounds.

I have have done more research, talk to different racers and track owners in the last 4 months that I feel I have a good grasp on thing. We will be having a meeting with all the different race organizations that will be in Florida for the GDN on Sat. Feb. 14 in the am.

Just to clarify we are MIDGETS whether you race a automotive engine or a motorcycle engine. There is no 1 thing from a sprint car that will bolt on to our cars but there are many things, in fact 90% of the chain driven cars are converted midget chassis with all midget components.

The difference is horsepower when we compare ourselves with "National" midgets. Division II is just like any entity that races across the US....as an example, Nascar you have the cup car, then the lower division made up of mostly guys that can not afford a cup deal and below them are the trucks. So basically you have Division I or what was Grand National cars before sponsor money came about, then Division II which was the old Late Model Sportsman class again Bush Beer came along and they became Buch cars and now you have the truck series that is a Division III series.

If we were to get a major sponsor like Dads Mufflers would we be call Dad's Muffler Midgets....you bet your arse if there is enough money there.

The FUTURE is very bright if you let go of the pass and grab hold of the future and if you can ALL look at the betterment of midget racing as a whole we have a very bright future ahead of us.....I can even see allowing turbo's in the not so distant future.

[DAD]

Wayne

MONEY TALKS and BULL$HIT WALKS. Sooo>>>> I still Like "Speedway Motors" Got kind of a down under twang to it don't it.

SPEEDWAY MIDGETS OF AMERICA >>>>>> SMOA

Did you ever get your hands on that wayward trophy?

Honest Dad Himself

[Wayne Davis]

Originally Posted by DAD Wayne Did you ever get your hands on that wayward trophy? Honest Dad Himself

Yeah I cut his tail off and painted him yellow...go's by the name of Fidoe....people are asking me "what breed of dog is he"....

[DAD]

Wayne

The car Roy Robins won the first Knoxville Nationals in was named "Fido". It was originally an old Champ car that Harry Hyde (Days of Thunder) modified to race with the then Modified division at the Sportsdrome in Jeffeersonville Indiana. Andy Hampton drove for him then and in 3 short years they won every race in sight and single handedly killed open wheel racing in the Louisville Kentucky Market. Harry went on to NASCAR fame and at one point racing with a kid named Tim Richmond. Hollywood went on and made a movie about the odd couple.

Harry sold the car to some guy up in Ohio I think by the name of Hoffman and Roy borrowed it from him to take to Knoxville with a home made wing on it. He came back with all their money in his pockets.

Honest Dad himself