[djbamber]

Originally Posted by Nate As long as he's with McLaren it wont happen. They're running Hondas and Honda hasn't quite gotten around to figuring it out since they've reentered F1

He has a better chance of winning the 500, than F1 at Monaco, never mind any other circuit in F1 with McLaren/Honda right now.

[flagboy55]

I think it's great that he is coming to run the 500, I wish more of them would. It was great when Mansell came over, great when Juan Pablo came over and I hope we get more world driving F1 driver's in the future. Now, there's plenty of blame to go around for the deterioration of the popularity of indy car's. They don't seem to want to help themselves at times. For example, if they can't see the value of the buzz that Bryan and his team of people brought to us grassroots fans, then they are surely short sighted. Now I always pay attention to the greatest spectacle in racing, but I have to believe that BC's participation had many more of our types watching and cheering and paying attention to the whole deal. I can only hope that they are working behind the scenes to bring talented racers like Bryan to race to make sure we keep watching!

[captrat]

[QUOTE=djbamber;471348]He has a better chance of winning the 500, than F1 at Monaco, never mind any other circuit in F1 with McLaren/Honda right now.[/QUOT

You are right because it would seem that passing in F1 is not well liked.

[Brickyard]

I know this is not going to be popular, especially with this being my first post. However, as a historian, I can't allow some of this to slide as "fact".

1.

Then Penske got the dirt cars thrown out because he did not own a dirt car. And after that he won alot more races.

Please cite a verifiable source for this assertion. USAC was not the only one to rid themselves of dirt after 1970. NASCAR ran it's last dirt races the same year. As far as the lack of dirt being the sole reason to Penske's success, I suggest you do a little research on the guy. You might find the same traits as other successful individuals....hard work, dedication, hiring the right people, and plenty of risk taking. Penske was going to be a force to be reckoned with dirt or no dirt as evidence by his short time in achieving success.

2.

CART ruined indy car.

Really? Is that why the stands were packed in the 80s and early 90s? Big name sponsors were all over the place? Fields of 27 or so cars were common place? Bump day at Indy was still a huge event? Why pole day was the second most attended IMS event during the month of May? Why they not only had national coverage and attention but internationally as well? Yep, they destroyed it all right.....

You might want to first start with Dan Gurney's white paper and go from there as to the reasons for the formation of CART. It will sound very familiar....oh, because it's sort of similar situation now with lack of promotion, a legacy of piss poor leadership(which is finally getting it's act together), lack of sponsorship, poor payouts, and a lack of attention outside the Holy 500.

3.

Pretty sure not even the great Tony Stewart would have had a chance at the speedway without it. CART ruined indy car. I'll take any fallout from changes that allowed, Jack Hewitt, Steve Kinser, Billy Boat and even Jeff Ward to compete at the speedway.

They actually have a tougher time getting into the race than they did in the days of CART, all because of Tony's nuclear option and the resulting split. With engines and chassis limited and a lack of money flowing via sponsors, people aren't throwing money out to run an extra car for a short track guy like they used to. You can no longer enter a year old chassis and engine design at lower cost. Once Honda and Chevy fulfill their engine lease obligation, which is 34 to 35, that's it. That isn't CART, Penske, or who ever else from that side you want to blame. That blame lies squarely at the feet of those in charge at 16th and and the new roundabout.

BTW, the nail in the coffin for the dirt slayer was set before CART or Penske were ever involved. As soon as the first rear engine car unloaded that nail was being driven and the lack of drivers preparing themselves for that eventuality drove the nail even further. Rear engines, wings, reintroduction of road courses, and of the course the reintroduction of foreign talent after Europe started to dig itself out of two wars and a depression......as I still say, if a Lawerenceburg, Bloomington, or Terre Haute slayer wants to get in on the action then they need to get themselves off the dirt and into either the European ladder or Mazda Road to Indy.

4.

Even if indy car's had vanished from the planet, I'll accept it as sacrifice for the opportunity for real race drivers to get a chance at the greatest race of all, just like it was intended when greats like Foyt, Unser, Rutherford, Jones, Sneva, and more ran there.

You came close to getting your wish and it didn't have to be that way. Had the split not happened, this series would be far more stable than it currently is and you might still have the opportunity for those one offs to load up a chassis and engine and try to get in the race. This notion Tony was doing this to save American open wheel racing and give the local guy a chance...well, I hate to tell you this but it was all a ruse. The only thing this was ever about was who was going to control the series. The local boys were used as bait to get people on his side...and as evidenced here and other places, they fans fell for it.

Drivers like Alonso, Mansell, Clark, etc are just as much real racers as the ones you cite. They also have something that more than a few that have been cited in this thread never will possess or didn't possess at the time, national and worldwide recognition. As skilled as they are Boat, Ward, Kite, and Hewitt aren't going to bring attention. Drivers like Unser, Foyt, Andretti, Mansell, Clark, Jackie Stewart, etc. will and it's simple. They have proven themselves at the top level of motorsports and have national and worldwide attention. Those are the drivers, like it or not, people pay to show up to see. Go to some online forums and message boards and see how big of a deal Alonso running the 500 is. Outside Trackforum and here, Clauson wasn't garnering that type of attention.

There is a reason that the 500 is part of the Triple Crown of auto racing with Monaco and Le Mans. That experiment of 1996 that you so revere damned near destroyed it.

[Aces&Eights]

Originally Posted by darnall I would love to see the rules tweaked for the 500..or every oval, to allow any IRL car from the last 3-4 rule packages to run with any naturally aspirated pushrod v-8 or DOHC 166ci turbo 4cylinder. Every time a new spec car comes out 40-60 chassis become obsolete and only good for showcar purposes....and a couple years later you actually see classified ads on racingjunk for turnkey or roller indycars in the 40-100K range. Surely Abreu Vineyards could hustle up enough help to buy a dallara showcar from some team for the same price one of their new sprintcar motors costs. Surely TRD could quickly come up with a different cam and the proper turbo to convert a couple of Kunz chilibowl winning motors to a suitable 500 package. Or the Hoffman team could find somebody willing to grab a roller and combine it with a motor out of the 69 sprintcar rotation. I have no doubt there are a few businessmen in Indiana, IL, MO or CA that would be more than willing to drop 5 figures on a car to get to see Ballou, T-Mez, Shurenburg or DD try to work their way up from the 10th row at Indy. I would never expect any kind of car grandfathering rule package to allow the old stuff to be equal to the current car and capable of winning...but I am absolutely sure there are 4-10 of our guys who could put a Don Ott 410 in somebody's old showcar and make the show ahead of 4-10 of the ride buyers nobodies ever heard of in a current teams 4th car. Also pretty sure they have enough savvy and racecraft to finish ahead of plenty other ride buyers that do qualify.

So when do we start? I kinda liked the look of those "Gold Crown" cars that were suggested a few years back, why not run Gold/Silver crown type cars instead of mid engine cars with wings... That would, to me, make it the "American Race" its suppose to be, instead of F1 lite.

[Brickyard]

Originally Posted by Aces&Eights That would, to me, make it the "American Race" its suppose to be, instead of F1 lite. [IMGhttp://www.goldcrownchampionship.com/gcphotopage/toledoshoot/Toledo%20Speedway%20Gold%20Crown%20Shoot%20-2.jpg[/IMG]

When it was billed as an open international event from the very beginning......

Like I've pointed out above, you could have still played in the sandbox had the second split never happened. The rules for the race would probably still be fairly open rather than stuck to a one chassis and two engines limited to how many they will support.

Now, you wouldn't have your Silver Crown cars because frankly they are too dangerous for that place and I don't think a single soul outside a couple of online forums would show up to watch that being that you are basically going backwards in innovation....which is another tenant of that race that sadly got lost in the second split...which of course is why your cars have looked, as you so derisively put it, like F1 lite for over 50 years now.

The cars look the way they do because that was the progression in tech as they found faster ways around that track. Speed is the name of the game in that race and series and a modified Silver Crown car isn't going to cut it. The rear engine was faster than that heavy front engine roadster, the wings made it faster, the turbo added boast, on and on.


Speaking of. You know that stock block Penske Mercedes-Ilmor that everyone accuses of being a cheater when in fact it was well within the USAC rules? One of the reasons that Tony used as a need to "save open wheel from itself"? They were going to make that a customer engine after that race. Yep, sure were....that was until Tony and USAC decided to save everyone. Now you have to hope and pray you can obtain a lease from Honda or Chevy.

[captrat]

I will not dispute all your claims but specifically the Penske/Dirt car response. Penske came from a road racing background with little loyalty or acumen for dirt racing. He was more than chagrined when Gary B. got upside down in turn 1 while qualifying Hulman Classic. Penske doing commentary for a sprint car race? My problem is the hypocrisy of Penske and other car owners who said it was too expensive to have 2 different style cars and then went out and invested in the Formula 5000 series and other road racing series.

[darnall]

Originally Posted by Brickyard BTW, the nail in the coffin for the dirt slayer was set before CART or Penske were ever involved. As soon as the first rear engine car unloaded that nail was being driven and the lack of drivers preparing themselves for that eventuality drove the nail even further. Rear engines, wings, reintroduction of road courses, and of the course the reintroduction of foreign talent after Europe started to dig itself out of two wars and a depression......as I still say, if a Lawerenceburg, Bloomington, or Terre Haute slayer wants to get in on the action then they need to get themselves off the dirt and into either the European ladder or Mazda Road to Indy.

Don't forget the swift kick in the teeth a certain controlling sanction administered to anybody who went to the expense, trouble and elbow grease to build a rear engine version of a sprintcar or midget that still fit in the existing parameters of the cars....

BANNED!!!!!!!!!!

Can't have somebody look good on the high banks of Salem while actually learning the way to drive the rear engine stuff at the same time.

[ISF]

Originally Posted by Brickyard I know this is not going to be popular, especially with this being my first post. However, as a historian, I can't allow some of this to slide as "fact". 1. Please cite a verifiable source for this assertion. USAC was not the only one to rid themselves of dirt after 1970. NASCAR ran it's last dirt races the same year. As far as the lack of dirt being the sole reason to Penske's success, I suggest you do a little research on the guy. You might find the same traits as other successful individuals....hard work, dedication, hiring the right people, and plenty of risk taking. Penske was going to be a force to be reckoned with dirt or no dirt as evidence by his short time in achieving success. 2. Really? Is that why the stands were packed in the 80s and early 90s? Big name sponsors were all over the place? Fields of 27 or so cars were common place? Bump day at Indy was still a huge event? Why pole day was the second most attended IMS event during the month of May? Why they not only had national coverage and attention but internationally as well? Yep, they destroyed it all right..... You might want to first start with Dan Gurney's white paper and go from there as to the reasons for the formation of CART. It will sound very familiar....oh, because it's sort of similar situation now with lack of promotion, a legacy of piss poor leadership(which is finally getting it's act together), lack of sponsorship, poor payouts, and a lack of attention outside the Holy 500. 3. They actually have a tougher time getting into the race than they did in the days of CART, all because of Tony's nuclear option and the resulting split. With engines and chassis limited and a lack of money flowing via sponsors, people aren't throwing money out to run an extra car for a short track guy like they used to. You can no longer enter a year old chassis and engine design at lower cost. Once Honda and Chevy fulfill their engine lease obligation, which is 34 to 35, that's it. That isn't CART, Penske, or who ever else from that side you want to blame. That blame lies squarely at the feet of those in charge at 16th and and the new roundabout. BTW, the nail in the coffin for the dirt slayer was set before CART or Penske were ever involved. As soon as the first rear engine car unloaded that nail was being driven and the lack of drivers preparing themselves for that eventuality drove the nail even further. Rear engines, wings, reintroduction of road courses, and of the course the reintroduction of foreign talent after Europe started to dig itself out of two wars and a depression......as I still say, if a Lawerenceburg, Bloomington, or Terre Haute slayer wants to get in on the action then they need to get themselves off the dirt and into either the European ladder or Mazda Road to Indy. 4. You came close to getting your wish and it didn't have to be that way. Had the split not happened, this series would be far more stable than it currently is and you might still have the opportunity for those one offs to load up a chassis and engine and try to get in the race. This notion Tony was doing this to save American open wheel racing and give the local guy a chance...well, I hate to tell you this but it was all a ruse. The only thing this was ever about was who was going to control the series. The local boys were used as bait to get people on his side...and as evidenced here and other places, they fans fell for it. Drivers like Alonso, Mansell, Clark, etc are just as much real racers as the ones you cite. They also have something that more than a few that have been cited in this thread never will possess or didn't possess at the time, national and worldwide recognition. As skilled as they are Boat, Ward, Kite, and Hewitt aren't going to bring attention. Drivers like Unser, Foyt, Andretti, Mansell, Clark, Jackie Stewart, etc. will and it's simple. They have proven themselves at the top level of motorsports and have national and worldwide attention. Those are the drivers, like it or not, people pay to show up to see. Go to some online forums and message boards and see how big of a deal Alonso running the 500 is. Outside Trackforum and here, Clauson wasn't garnering that type of attention. There is a reason that the 500 is part of the Triple Crown of auto racing with Monaco and Le Mans. That experiment of 1996 that you so revere damned near destroyed it.

Originally Posted by Brickyard When it was billed as an open international event from the very beginning...... Like I've pointed out above, you could have still played in the sandbox had the second split never happened. The rules for the race would probably still be fairly open rather than stuck to a one chassis and two engines limited to how many they will support. Now, you wouldn't have your Silver Crown cars because frankly they are too dangerous for that place and I don't think a single soul outside a couple of online forums would show up to watch that being that you are basically going backwards in innovation....which is another tenant of that race that sadly got lost in the second split...which of course is why your cars have looked, as you so derisively put it, like F1 lite for over 50 years now. The cars look the way they do because that was the progression in tech as they found faster ways around that track. Speed is the name of the game in that race and series and a modified Silver Crown car isn't going to cut it. The rear engine was faster than that heavy front engine roadster, the wings made it faster, the turbo added boast, on and on. Speaking of. You know that stock block Penske Mercedes-Ilmor that everyone accuses of being a cheater when in fact it was well within the USAC rules? One of the reasons that Tony used as a need to "save open wheel from itself"? They were going to make that a customer engine after that race. Yep, sure were....that was until Tony and USAC decided to save everyone. Now you have to hope and pray you can obtain a lease from Honda or Chevy.

We've heard all of this before. Most is conjecture and can't be collaborated one way or the other.

A couple of things that really can't be disputed is that Roger Penske, and those of his ilk, were at least partially responsible for the dirt races being eliminated from the Championship Trail. Another thing that cannot be disputed is that had Penske been so inclined he could have been just as successful running the dirt tracks as he has been in everything else he has endeavored. If I were to venture a guess I would say Roger felt the dirt racing was somewhat below his lofty ambitions.

If you are to persuade some of us that the aforementioned dirt drivers would have had a greater opportunity to have been part of the starting grid for the Indy 500 if CART had stayed in a position of power you'll need to come up with some solid facts that bear that out. I don't see how that is possible but I've been wrong before. Just someone saying so on a message board doesn't necessarily make it the truth.

Is there a remote chance that you are a former CART employee?

[Stevensville Mike]

Originally Posted by Brickyard I know this is not going to be popular, especially with this being my first post. However, as a historian, I can't allow some of this to slide as "fact"....

First off, Brickyard.... welcome to the forum! Your first topic to comment on shows you are truly a historian and whether the members agree, or disagree with you, we need/welcome fans like you here.

For the others on this thread, on the first page I opened it up to the gallery that I felt the IRL destroyed the 500. I still do, and always will stick to my guns on that. One has told me I am wrong. No. I am not wrong. I have a different opinion than you. I can be told all day long I am wrong, but it goes in one ear and out the other. In my mind, I am right.

And please don't get me started on 25/8 and/or Gene Simmons. We'll leave that for another day.

However, this IRL opinion of mine has somewhat hijacked the thread, that being Fernando Alonso entering the Indianapolis 500. I apologize for that.

Brickyard, you speak very well and represent all on the CART/Champ Car side of the split.

Now, as for the topic at hand, it was mentioned that guys like Rico, Kyle Larson, Christopher Bell, and even one of the Busch brothers would be great for the 500. To us, yes it would. But thinking on a GLOBAL basis (i.e. outside and beyond of us dirt track junkies), Alonso coming here to race makes everything else very small. This is world racing news.

Do you realize with him in the race, the networks pretty much just picked up the entire country of Spain, where Alonso is a national hero? That's like..... 47 million people. Now, if only HALF of them have TVs, 23.5 million more viewers? Not to mention the attention that IndyCar will get by having an F1 driver, a two-time world champion by the way, spend his time here than there? This isn't a back-of-the-pack career F1 jobber we are talking about. If given the right tools, and not a current McLaren Honda, this guy would still be knocking them off one after another. You do not become a two time world champion without a God-given talent.

And furthermore, throughout the Monaco GP broadcast earlier in that day, the reminder that Alonso will be in the 500 will be thrown out on the table in every language, multiple times, and in every corner of the motorsports world. Once the post race interviews are done, the fans will go straight from Monaco to Indy.

Rico, Bell, Larson.... if they get there, no one across the globe, unfortunately, is going to write how these guys entered the 500 - except for us guys and girls here.

No... this is, by far, the biggest news in motorsports right now. And it is nothing but good news.

Keep swinging away, Brickyard. Keep swinging away.