[jonesy112]

all i am saying is for 10k you can have a competitive 410 non wing motor, and I would think for 305 you would need a comparatively better motor. IE say non wing 800 horses will put you well in the ball park for a 410, and you can buy a good 780-800 hp used motor for 10-12k, and you are there. now some guy shows up with his gressman built 305 that will compete with the 360's at attica or fremont (WITH WINGS) that he has 17-20 grand in and the low buck larry shows up with the all iron $4k motor but he is making 100hp or more less than the big motor and he will struggle to compete.

I guess what I am saying is I believe non wing with a 410 even a marginal motor will get you close on the bull rings because they overpower the track. with less horsepower in a 305 they are not overpowering a racetrack like the 410 so every horsepower counts. Motors will be expensive and you are running for even less money than the already meager 410 purse.

Now many say the answer is a claim rule. I dont believe that a claim rule really works because there is a gentlemans sort of agreement in those classes not to claim, and when it is broken I have seen it get downright hostile. Being from Iowa originally I use the IMCA boon supernationals as my example. No matter what the claim rule is people will spend more than the claim amount on the motor

Additionally the more rules the more need to enforce them. The 410's are fairly open rules around Indiana and the enforcement is pathetic. I believe at the local tracks running a 460 small block motor would be easy. I have yet to see a motor pumped at a local show. Who is going to police all of the 305 engine rules, the spec tires, wheels, shocks, gears, etc etc. Again with all the spec parts it becomes increasingly difficult to find speed outside of a high dollar motor program. I see the Ford Focus series as a disasterous example of how a crate motor program can go wrong.

I dont want to sound like I have all the reasons things wont work but the bottom line is I feel indiana is the best area of sprint car racing left (which is why i moved here) and this is where Knoxville and others started to go wrong with the creation of support classes that dont make sense. As a former 360 racer at knoxville, and the son of an early 360 racer at knoxville we lived through the progression firsthand.

[Gasman fan 50]

I don't think CI is the answer. Midget, 360, and 410 cost is all about the same. I would guess tires would be the answer. Like ten inch wide tires on the rear. Now that would fix a lots of problem. Try to get that engine power on the dirt to go forward:headbang:.

[HurstBros0]

Good Idea ?....... Yes
Do we need another support class?....... No
Promoters dream ? ......Yes ( Sprint cars they could pay 300 to win)
Will it work ? ...... Maybe ( Modifieds started slow and now there seems to be one in everyones backyard )
305`s hard to find ? ...... No ( 3 inch stroke x 4 inch bore is 301 with room to clean up ) 283 crank with 350 block or you could run a F:censor:rd .
Would they be fun ? ...... Yes ( Since I am a never - was with no illusive NASCAR aspirations I`d run one )
And it could be a 45 and over class for us old clowns who can`t give it up. We won`t get in the way of the kids who are moving on up , and our wives will see how slow we are going and will quit nagging about how we must have some sort of foolish middle age death wish .

[illiNOISE]

Originally Posted by HurstBros0 305`s hard to find ? ...... No ( 3 inch stroke x 4 inch bore is 301 with room to clean up ) 283 crank with 350 block or you could run a F:censor:rd .

I don't know about other areas where 305's race, but most of the 305 sprint tracks around Missouri and Iowa (i.e. La Monte, Doe Run, Burlington, etc.) require their 305's engines to be Chevy. (with a .060 overbore) They even specify which 305 block casting numbers are legal.

[thebus79h]

[QUOTE=jonesy112;15482]A spec 305 class would not work in the long term, plain and simple. The more rules that are made for a class, the more money it takes to get around the rules. I know that the majority of folks on here are non-wing fans, but take the 360 winged class at knoxville. That was started in the 80's as a low budget alternative to the 410 class....20 years later they are very close to the cost of a 410 and race for $1250 to win, instead of the $3k that a weekly 410 show pays. Sounds like a winning deal for the promotors and a losing one for the racers. A good used 410 at k'ville will cost you 20K, a good 360 will cost you 16k. But with a 360 or even a 305, the steel block is not reparible....once you crack the block you have a HUGE cost to put your engine guts in a new block. That isnt saving anyone any money.
QUOTE]

I respect your opinion, but will you please explain to me how a 17k cost of an engine over a 35k expense is more expensive? Cracking blocks... Talk to Wesmar, or Gaerte, and find out how many ASCS 360's get hurt if you take care of them? Gary Wright won all those races in the ASCS National series a few years ago off of three motors, and from what I understand, only used two. What about the cost savings there? Plus the rebuilts, 4k for a rebuild twice a year for a weekly team for a 410, compared to 3k for a rebuild of a 360 once a year. Again, where is a 360 more money?

You can't go buy what it pays to win because I can tell you in a good series of 410 racing, you're not going to win races unless the track is perfect for your type of motor if you've only got 20k in it.

[jonesy112]

Thebus....im not sure I fully understand your post, but I will give it a shot. Let me know if I miss what you were saying.

I am not saying that 360 is more expensive than a 410, i said that the cost of a 360 was approaching the cost of 410. But from what the local payout is at knoxville, a 410 is actually easier to recoup some of your expenses. Knoxville is 3k to win 300 to start for a 410. 360s are 1250 to win 150 to start. To run 4th in the 360 A (which is far from an easy feat) only pays 550. You can get that with a top 15 in the 410s. Once again, since you dont have that big of a price difference between the motors and the tire rule is the exact same in both classes, the better overall payout makes 410 racing a more viable option. I understand that you cant go off of what a race pays to win, but usually more money to win also means more money to start so the total payoff is higher all the way through the field.

I can tell you that we took care of our motors, but we had 3 catastrophic motor failures in about a 14 month period. With an aluminium block we might have been able to save 2 of them, but its hard to say. It just would have been nice to have that option.

A 20k used 410 motor will get you in the ballpark at about any track no matter what the conditions. You can buy most outlaw motors that are 1 or 2 seasons old for about 20-22k. I know of a few that have been upfront this season in qualifying, dashes and mains that you can buy for right at 20. Also if you dont have your 410 set on kill, it will last a long time. Justin Henderson is getting 20+ nights on his motors between rebuilds running the Outlaws. For a weekly racer one rebuild a season would be fine if they are getting that many nights out of a motor.

Aside from all the details, the 360 started off as the econo type of class, and it was in the beginning. But now it is far from that, and the payout difference between the 360 and 410 is too far apart for the closeness of the cost of running both.

Bus: I think I understand where Jonesy is coming from. I think the point he is making is that the econo class ends up being very un-econo to make up a word. You mention Gary Wright who is a certified 360 (and 410 when he decides to run them) Bad A$$. I used the money signs on purpose because Gary will win more money in a 360 than anyone I can think of, but yet he has announced that he is selling out his equipment and will only continue if someone wants to foot the bills. According to Openwheeltimes Driver search link GW has won 14 A mains in 42 starts. He is just shy of stanbrough's win percentage with 30 wins in 81 starts. Also notable is most of GW's wins have occured as ASCSoT races which pay pretty well, if I remember right its like 3 grand to win, and a grand to tenth, not positive but its better than 410 here, AND they have 50 grand to the points champion which Wright is leading, and judging by previous performances at STN he should win the championship. So I suppose that one could conclude that the ASCS 360 deal is pretty expensive in its own right.

As far as the 20k motor goes...I drove for a guy out of nebraska who bought a 2004 Forbrook Mopar in 2005, and the Price tag came to $16,000. The motor had 14 races on it, so Guy agreed to have it freshened at Gaerte and the owner would pay him what Gaerte charged him. The owner decided to get the motor freshened on his own so I cant say what that would have been, but even at 5 grand I calculate 21 thousand for a year old outlaw motor that was capable of driving around some good cars by putting your foot down on the straitaway at Knoxville. It was strong enough to go 15.35 in nationals quals with a pretty crappy car with a guy driving who had only run 5 410 races previously. I would happily line that motor up at any outlaw show in the country after having worked on the road for an outlaw team last year.

[Al Soran]

Snagged this off of Hoseheads main page:

Jesse Hockett, Made a trip to I-70 dirt track Sat.10-20-07 and WON in Kevin Roth's 305 Sprint Car in an Open ,"no rules" 305,360,410 combined Wingless Sprint Car OCTOBER Series Race His nickname "the Rocket" Showed, starting 3rd row

[sprintracer82]

up here in michigan we have the michigan traditional sprints. this last season was the first year of racing. it was kinda open non winged racing with a spec tire and a 1500# weight rule. this next year they are toying with the idea of iron blocks and no down nozzels. if a guy can put an iron 410, 383, 360 together for around $5000 to $10000 it makes it better for the little guy. i know it makes a differance that michigan tracks are known for being dry and slick compared to indy tracks. i think a 16inch rr and a 14 inch lr with a hard rr would be a great move. i dont know as though i would go into saying that a 305 would be the end all to big dollars. i looked into 305 racing and a new 305 was around $12000.
i have under $10000 into my 383 and it is a healthy 650 to 700hp. i wouldnt want to spend more money for less bang for my buck. it would be like a $20000 go kart. my grandpa build motors for rollie beale and they were 305s and they had a ton for money into them and that was years ago.
nick landon
landon racing #82

[illiNOISE]

Originally Posted by sprintracer82 i dont know as though i would go into saying that a 305 would be the end all to big dollars. i looked into 305 racing and a new 305 was around $12000.

It depends what the rules are, and the enforcement of those rules. I know some 305 tracks are more liberal on engine rules than others. At Doe Run Raceway in Missouri, there are even rules on valve size (1.94 intake/1.50 exhaust) and how much cam lift is allowed (.550). Yet tracks such as 34 Raceway in Burlington, IA or LA Racway in LaMonte, MO have slightly more open rules.

But regardless of rules, if one has to spend 12k for a motor in what is meant to be an "econo" class, well, it's not really "econo" any more.

So what does it cost to run up front in a 305? Well, Josh Worrell of Kirkwood, MO won the Doe Run Raceway track championship running a ten year old chassis haulded on an open trailer, and according to his dad, they only had $10k in the whole operation.

http://www.stlracing.com/forums/show...hlight=sprints

To me, the 305 class is meant for a specific type of racer, and for a specific type of track. It provides the street stock/sportsman/B-mod/micro sprint type racer a wonderful oportunity to move up into a class with some glamour to it, yet still be able to make the mortgage and utility payments each month. The class also is a great fit for your underfunded rural type tracks, where running full blown sprints or LM's would punch the promoter a one-way express ticket to the poor house.

Granted, if you try to run 305's on a big half mile like Knoxville or Williams Grove where the fans are accustomed to seeing balls out 410's and 360's, the 305's are going to drive the fans to the beer stand. But go to some little isolated county fair 1/4 mile track where the fans rarely see anything more menacing than a claimer-IMCA modified, and their jaws are likely to drop when the so-called "limited" sprints come out.