[Mud Packer]

Don,

Not trying to be an ***hole, but after you returned from DuQuoin, have you contacted Jim Siner with PowrI and asked him to "show" you the rule? If I were a professional race car owner, that would have been the first place I would have started, not on IOW board. I doubt very seriously that PowrI will debate this on a public forum. Go to the source and work with them to clarify it and get it published in the rule book. Then everyone knows for sure.

As a former race official from back in the early 70's, this is how I have seen the races scored once the leader takes the checkered flag and a caution flag or red flag is displayed. I am very surprised in all of the years that you have been a car owner that you haven't seen this happen.

[spankytoo]

I have seen this rule play out many times in Tulsa, both at the shoot out and at the chili bowl. Just ask ron Shuman 2 or 3 years ago.

[Hubie]

So I guess this Powri outfit does not have a rule book that they can reference? Sounds kind of lame.

I have not owned a Midget in many years. I do however, go to many, many races. I think I became aware of this rule (reverting back to the last lap in the event of an accident/problem, with the leader taking the checkered flag yet compition going on for position behind him.) and it has always reverted to the last complete green flag lap (after scoring stoppage)

Like Kirk stated.

I do think there should be a rule book handy, to take care of problems like this.

Jacob Wilson is a fine shoe, and his folks are great as well. Sometimes luck in not on your side. I do believe all these rules (even though it sounds like a printed version was not on hand) are to ensure safety above all else.

[Tim Clauson]

Originally Posted by skids59 Guys don't rail on Don for this question. He's dead on when explaining what happened. He should have been in the show. He was not the only car that had questionable scoring on the transfer spots for the feature. The 57 car from Wisconsin should have made the show as well. Not because of the bad slider he put on the 55 car coming off turn 4 but was put in the wrong spots 3 different times, 1 on the second complete restart and twice under 2 cautions late in the race. I like POWRi for all they do for midget racing, but scoring sometimes is questionable. jmo ---------- Post added at 09:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:28 AM ---------- RACE POOR... Clausson got a provisional.

Just to set the record straight Clauson did not receive a provisional, or if he did know one told us.

Thanks !!

Tim Clauson

[The Texan]

Originally Posted by bloard Don, the fans did get 20 laps. When the leader took the checkered, 20 laps had been completed. End of race. This has nothing to do with the fans getting cheated.... it has to do with you feeling like you got cheated. Let's keep our victims straight here.

If the race is over when the leader takes the checkers, then why allow any changes in position behind the leader whether there is a caution or not? I mean the race IS over and nothing else matters, right? By your reasoning, every race should use the white flag lap to determine 2nd place back because the race is over when the winner takes the checkers.

[micro94]

Ok the leader took the checkered.Dont know where on the track the spin took place that created the caution but I say if the leader took the checkered the cars are scored the way they cross the start finish line making Don's car 5th.And I like you Mudpacker but I believe stated earlier Don and his crew did go to Poweri officials where they recieved no answer what so ever.Ive raced micros for 3 years although I dont anymore.In every occasion at Logan,Peru,Linton if the Yellow comes out after the leader crosses the finish line they finish the way they finish the start finish line unless the car spins oin turn 3 or on front stretch where it is in a bad spot then race is over how they cross the line.

[MHess]

Hey Texan, say your driver leads every lap of a 25 lap race. He is leading by a half a lap. He takes the checkered flag when 2nd and 3rd get together in turn 3. The leader has already taken the checkered flag and is now in turns 1&2. With your logic, he is going to have to run more laps to get the win?

If so then the 4th place car which, is now 2nd, gets close enough in turn 1 to nerf him out of the way. So he already has won but now gets taken out because everyone not crossing the checkered flags. That's what you want to see happen?

[racefan20]

Originally Posted by DonMoore10 You are the first person in this thread to understand the point of this discussion. I have signed dozens of music contracts that spell out terms of agreement. I hope that those who are parents that have issues with the schooling of their children can expect rules that govern how the daily activites will be administered. We all must abide by the traffic laws that govern how we drive the highways and byways of this country. Businesses have rules also. Terms are spelled out on many of the receipts that we sign when we purchase an item. How much integrety does an organization/business have? I recently returned an expensive item that didn't work. It was beyond the 60 day agreement that I signed with the company. We were able to work out a deal that was beneficial to both of us. It sounds to me like a lot more of "this is the way it's always been done" with no basis for a decision. "This is the way it's always been done" doesn't fly with me but apparently the racing community has been operating like that for so long that most people don't know any better. In my many years of teaching, the "this is the ways it's always been done" has no defense. If you want to run a program with some integrety and trust you need to operate your business/org accordingly. Hidden rules, "gotcha deals" and the like, lead to a distrustful community. Operating a program/business by the seat of your pants with no basis is going to lead to a lot of future problems. I really don't care how you want to administer the final laps of a midget race, but I'd like to know it advance how you're going to do it. No different than knowing in advance what the speed limit is going down the highway. I'm not interested in playing gotcha with a highway patrol person making up the rules as they go along. If there is a rule that is quoted for a midget race and the organization has any kind of integrety, it will be in the rule book that governs the organization or will be clearly explained either on a handout sheet of paper, posted on a bulletin board or explained in a driver's meeting.

So Don what you are saying is that you laid down your money without knowing what the rules are? I would say that is your mistake whether it seemed fair or not. Let the buyer beware. Better ask Tony for a rulebook before you head to Ft Wayne so you wont be surprised if something happens you dont agree with. Not trying to take a shot at you, just pointing out that when you lay down your $ you agree to go by the rules that the organization runs under, if you dont know those rules then its your fault. I know this ruling didnt seem fair but rules is rules and you agreed to them when you entered your car.

---------- Post added at 04:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:42 PM ----------

Don it took me about 3 minutes to find the rule online, as much as you are on here you should have found it long before you started this thread

A. If a race is stopped by a red flag after the Leader and/or other cars have taken the checkered, those taking the checkered prior to the showing of the red flag will be scored according to how they crossed the start-finish line. Cars passing the start-finish line after the showing of the red flag will be scored according to their last scored lap (green). Those involved in the accident will be scored at the rear of the field.

Here is the link: powri.com/ClientFiles/Images/Files/National%20Midget%20Rules.doc

[Mud Packer]

Originally Posted by micro94 Ok the leader took the checkered.Dont know where on the track the spin took place that created the caution but I say if the leader took the checkered the cars are scored the way they cross the start finish line making Don's car 5th.And I like you Mudpacker but I believe stated earlier Don and his crew did go to Poweri officials where they recieved no answer what so ever.Ive raced micros for 3 years although I dont anymore.In every occasion at Logan,Peru,Linton if the Yellow comes out after the leader crosses the finish line they finish the way they finish the start finish line unless the car spins oin turn 3 or on front stretch where it is in a bad spot then race is over how they cross the line.

mircro94,

I realize that Don and his crew did go talk to Jim Siner with PowrI after the race. In fact, I saw him talking to them after the qualifier was completed. My point was Don should contact Jim Siner and ask to have them show him the rule. Apparently Don took Jim's word at DuQuoin that it was a rule and after the fact he is now trying to find it in the rule book. As I mentioned, I doubt if PowrI will debate this on a forum. The sensible thing to do is contact them and discuss the situation man to man rather than coming on here and venting which will do absolutely no good in my opinion.

[bloard]

In fairness to Don, that rule says Red flag... not yellow. But that doesn't change my opinion that his argument has gotten pretty weak.

Of course every single scenario can't realistically be handled by written rule, thus there is one other fairly important one that allows for discretion under circumstances such as this..

5. All decisions at the race track will be left to the discretion of the Director of Competition.

I have no problem with that rule at all.


Also... I know, I know, I know that this was a POWRi race, not a USAC race. And I suppose that you are going to say that the POWRi rulebook needs to be expanded from it's current 10 pages, to the 98 pages in the USAC rulebook, but FWIW, here the USAC rule on the subject:

If a yellow flag is displayed after the leader receives the checkered flag, each car crossing the finish line under yellow flag conditions will be scored in their position as they were scored on the last officially completed race lap. Any cars involved in the incident causing the yellow flag will be placed at the end of all cars running on their lap in the final standings.

So now the argument that the ruling was some how unique, or out of the ordinary, or unfair for scoring a midget race in general has no merit.... we are left with the simple argument that the POWRi rulebook needs to grow by 80 pages to cover all of these scenarios. So be it. I assume you were aware of the same inadequacies of the rulebook prior to the race, since you must have studied it prior to your go/no go decision.