[ufbu812]

The so called 'crash pad' is certainly NOT the answer......

I wish people would first learn the actual chain of events and have real world knowledge and information about a specific incident before throwing their flawed opinions and recommendations about how to prevent another like incident.....

Like many racers in the sport today, Kevin's seat was mounted with the seat bottom at least 2 to 2 1/2 inches below the bottom of the butt bar, which historically used to be required to be at or below the level of the seat bottom to prevent this very injury from occurring. In this incident, the torque tube was accelerated vertically with tremendous force and impacted the seat bottom just as Kevin's body was slammed downward into the seat bottom with an opposite tremendous force. The torque tube drove upward into the seat bottom and produced an intruding 'dent' to a depth of an amount equal to how far the seat bottom was installed below the butt bar, which again, was 2 to 2 1/2 inches upward into the tailbone and pelvic structure of the body. As the driveline intruded further into the seat bottom, the pinion snout of the rear end center section finally impacted the butt bar where it crushed the tube shut partially and proceeded to also bend the tube into a bow shape before finally stopping any further vertical travel.

It is highly unlikely any foam product would reduce the severity of the extreme violence impacted upon the seat bottom and any drivers spinal exposure to these converging forces. Kevin was using a professionally prepared and installed pour in place seat insert of the very same materials and procedures as used in the NASCAR community.

Kevin and his team were in no way doing anything to intentially create an unsafe cockpit environment. In fact, a vast majority of the racers at Knoxville exhibited much the same seat installation issues as Kevin's car this weekend. Very simply, the massively important placement of the butt bar in many cars has been ignored.......

Oh, and btw, in just the last couple of years there have been several drivers suffer compressed vertebra damage while using the so called 'crash pad'. It ain't the magic cure for what we are witnessing happen with our favorite race cars.....

[Morin Racing 98]

Originally Posted by ufbu812 The so called 'crash pad' is certainly NOT the answer...... I wish people would first learn the actual chain of events and have real world knowledge and information about a specific incident before throwing their flawed opinions and recommendations about how to prevent another like incident..... Like many racers in the sport today, Kevin's seat was mounted with the seat bottom at least 2 to 2 1/2 inches below the bottom of the butt bar, which historically used to be required to be at or below the level of the seat bottom to prevent this very injury from occurring. In this incident, the torque tube was accelerated vertically with tremendous force and impacted the seat bottom just as Kevin's body was slammed downward into the seat bottom with an opposite tremendous force. The torque tube drove upward into the seat bottom and produced an intruding 'dent' to a depth of an amount equal to how far the seat bottom was installed below the butt bar, which again, was 2 to 2 1/2 inches upward into the tailbone and pelvic structure of the body. As the driveline intruded further into the seat bottom, the pinion snout of the rear end center section finally impacted the butt bar where it crushed the tube shut partially and proceeded to also bend the tube into a bow shape before finally stopping any further vertical travel. It is highly unlikely any foam product would reduce the severity of the extreme violence impacted upon the seat bottom and any drivers spinal exposure to these converging forces. Kevin was using a professionally prepared and installed pour in place seat insert of the very same materials and procedures as used in the NASCAR community. Kevin and his team were in no way doing anything to intentially create an unsafe cockpit environment. In fact, a vast majority of the racers at Knoxville exhibited much the same seat installation issues as Kevin's car this weekend. Very simply, the massively important placement of the butt bar in many cars has been ignored....... Oh, and btw, in just the last couple of years there have been several drivers suffer compressed vertebra damage while using the so called 'crash pad'. It ain't the magic cure for what we are witnessing happen with our favorite race cars.....

What do you suggest for those of us with regular seats mounted in the front and back with only a bar under the front of the seat?

[Seadog]

Originally Posted by ufbu812 The so called 'crash pad' is certainly NOT the answer...... I wish people would first learn the actual chain of events and have real world knowledge and information about a specific incident before throwing their flawed opinions and recommendations about how to prevent another like incident..... Like many racers in the sport today, Kevin's seat was mounted with the seat bottom at least 2 to 2 1/2 inches below the bottom of the butt bar, which historically used to be required to be at or below the level of the seat bottom to prevent this very injury from occurring. In this incident, the torque tube was accelerated vertically with tremendous force and impacted the seat bottom just as Kevin's body was slammed downward into the seat bottom with an opposite tremendous force. The torque tube drove upward into the seat bottom and produced an intruding 'dent' to a depth of an amount equal to how far the seat bottom was installed below the butt bar, which again, was 2 to 2 1/2 inches upward into the tailbone and pelvic structure of the body. As the driveline intruded further into the seat bottom, the pinion snout of the rear end center section finally impacted the butt bar where it crushed the tube shut partially and proceeded to also bend the tube into a bow shape before finally stopping any further vertical travel. It is highly unlikely any foam product would reduce the severity of the extreme violence impacted upon the seat bottom and any drivers spinal exposure to these converging forces. Kevin was using a professionally prepared and installed pour in place seat insert of the very same materials and procedures as used in the NASCAR community. Kevin and his team were in no way doing anything to intentially create an unsafe cockpit environment. In fact, a vast majority of the racers at Knoxville exhibited much the same seat installation issues as Kevin's car this weekend. Very simply, the massively important placement of the butt bar in many cars has been ignored....... Oh, and btw, in just the last couple of years there have been several drivers suffer compressed vertebra damage while using the so called 'crash pad'. It ain't the magic cure for what we are witnessing happen with our favorite race cars.....

Theoretically, would the problem have been any different if it had been a traditional sprint car and not the winged variety or do they essentially have the same construction?

[Tony74]

Same wing/non-wing. Just depends on the chassis, some companies have "butt bars" in some don't. Jeff Swindell has wrote several articles about seat belt and seat mounting, and has a few photos on his site http://www.jeffswindell.com/contact.html but it does not show the placement of a butt bar.

[cshuman]

Originally Posted by ufbu812 The so called 'crash pad' is certainly NOT the answer...... I wish people would first learn the actual chain of events and have real world knowledge and information about a specific incident before throwing their flawed opinions and recommendations about how to prevent another like incident..... Like many racers in the sport today, Kevin's seat was mounted with the seat bottom at least 2 to 2 1/2 inches below the bottom of the butt bar, which historically used to be required to be at or below the level of the seat bottom to prevent this very injury from occurring. In this incident, the torque tube was accelerated vertically with tremendous force and impacted the seat bottom just as Kevin's body was slammed downward into the seat bottom with an opposite tremendous force. The torque tube drove upward into the seat bottom and produced an intruding 'dent' to a depth of an amount equal to how far the seat bottom was installed below the butt bar, which again, was 2 to 2 1/2 inches upward into the tailbone and pelvic structure of the body. As the driveline intruded further into the seat bottom, the pinion snout of the rear end center section finally impacted the butt bar where it crushed the tube shut partially and proceeded to also bend the tube into a bow shape before finally stopping any further vertical travel. It is highly unlikely any foam product would reduce the severity of the extreme violence impacted upon the seat bottom and any drivers spinal exposure to these converging forces. Kevin was using a professionally prepared and installed pour in place seat insert of the very same materials and procedures as used in the NASCAR community. Kevin and his team were in no way doing anything to intentially create an unsafe cockpit environment. In fact, a vast majority of the racers at Knoxville exhibited much the same seat installation issues as Kevin's car this weekend. Very simply, the massively important placement of the butt bar in many cars has been ignored....... Oh, and btw, in just the last couple of years there have been several drivers suffer compressed vertebra damage while using the so called 'crash pad'. It ain't the magic cure for what we are witnessing happen with our favorite race cars.....

I'm not sure how you get a seat 2 1/2 inches BELOW the butt bar, without moving the seat tube that is installed by the manufacturer.. I can mount my Butlerbuilt Advantage seat on the seat bar, with no spacers and the rear end hits the butt bar before my seat.. You have some very specific details that you better be damn sure you can back up.. Just sayin..

[Puppy]

Originally Posted by ufbu812 The so called 'crash pad' is certainly NOT the answer...... I wish people would first learn the actual chain of events and have real world knowledge and information about a specific incident before throwing their flawed opinions and recommendations about how to prevent another like incident..... Like many racers in the sport today, Kevin's seat was mounted with the seat bottom at least 2 to 2 1/2 inches below the bottom of the butt bar, which historically used to be required to be at or below the level of the seat bottom to prevent this very injury from occurring. In this incident, the torque tube was accelerated vertically with tremendous force and impacted the seat bottom just as Kevin's body was slammed downward into the seat bottom with an opposite tremendous force. The torque tube drove upward into the seat bottom and produced an intruding 'dent' to a depth of an amount equal to how far the seat bottom was installed below the butt bar, which again, was 2 to 2 1/2 inches upward into the tailbone and pelvic structure of the body. As the driveline intruded further into the seat bottom, the pinion snout of the rear end center section finally impacted the butt bar where it crushed the tube shut partially and proceeded to also bend the tube into a bow shape before finally stopping any further vertical travel. It is highly unlikely any foam product would reduce the severity of the extreme violence impacted upon the seat bottom and any drivers spinal exposure to these converging forces. Kevin was using a professionally prepared and installed pour in place seat insert of the very same materials and procedures as used in the NASCAR community. Kevin and his team were in no way doing anything to intentially create an unsafe cockpit environment. In fact, a vast majority of the racers at Knoxville exhibited much the same seat installation issues as Kevin's car this weekend. Very simply, the massively important placement of the butt bar in many cars has been ignored....... Oh, and btw, in just the last couple of years there have been several drivers suffer compressed vertebra damage while using the so called 'crash pad'. It ain't the magic cure for what we are witnessing happen with our favorite race cars.....

I wish that those who think that they have all of the "real world" experience or "were there" or whatever would stop trying to "own" a given situation. Just because a seat is damaged or bent dosnt mean that the torque tube is what caused the injury 100% for sure, absoulutly, end of story!!! One can NEVER count out the dynamic of the frame rails hitting the earth with the seat mounted so firmly to the chassis, as being the cause of these injuries. For someone to count this out and hence the 801 Solutions crashpad being useless is just a big of an uninformed windbag as those he accuses. Sure, maybe there have been instances of spinal injuries with someone using a crashpad, but that would be like saying, "Hey, guys still get head injuries with a helmet on, so I'm not going to wear one". It's just absurd to say that. I'm not discounting the possibility of the Torque tube/center section hitting the seat as being what caused the injury, I'm thinking that it could be a combintaion of the two dynamics at the very least. At any rate, I'm joining the rest in the open wheel world to wish Kevin a full and very speedy recovery.

[SWScaleChassis]

I think that if we could determine what in the rear end broke to possibly cause the QC or Torque Tube to even make contact with the seat is a step in the right direction.

Obviously solid frame impacts are going to happen (Jason Johnson/Daryn Pittman Placerville), but instances like what we saw at Knoxville could be researched and the factors that allowed the suspension to give and allow the frame to hit the surface could be looked into, addressed, and acted on.

I for one have seen a few instances where the bosses on the rear of the frame where the shock mounts, completely rip out of the horizontal tube between the rear 'downtube' and the rear bar near the drivers shoulders. Not saying that that was the cause, but it could be.

The crash pad is definitely a step in the right direction. A lot of improvements have been made in a frontal impact (HANS), side impact (Seats), and top impact (Halos). But I think that its worth a look at what can be done to keep solid heavy things from hitting the seats.

[Morin Racing 98]

I know what I am doing as soon as I can..I am gonna install a metal case around the bottom of the seat. Probably just make it a bolt on for the seat itself instead of welding on the frame. I would rather take my chances with a piece of steel other than aluminum to protect my driver. I know this issue/injury rarely occurs, but the driver has no defense while buckled in the seat.

[suzuki756]

A half circle shield under the seat above the torq tube. My seat was bent from a back fire in the engine pushing boff once it twisted the tube and hit the seat . my cars have bars under the seat also but it still happened. But everyone is worried about weight so fix it change all the weight rules 10 lbs and mandatory a shield under the seat

[DAD]

Back in olden days they used to tie the left rear down with a log chain. Today we have Kevlar straps. Why not put a Kevlar strap around the torque tube at the rear end and secure it to a cross tube the same dimensions of the lower frame rail to prevent the excess movement upward of the rear end?

Honest Dad himself