[Quantrill]

This is something IMO that should be looked at very closely. Either restricting RPM or restricting intake air with some type of restrictor would limit HP available to be made. Seem to me restricting intake would be the easiest to police and also restrict RPM at the same time??

[Daddyz]

Originally Posted by jdull99 Any interest in teaming up for some micro races? I have a complete engine (with Odom computer, electrics, carbs, etc) - idc what we run for RPM! (lol), all the parts that bolt on; a budget to run a handful of races, but no frame (I didn't install panard bar bolt with locktite & all the nut-& -bolt checks I do pre & during the race; failed me).

Sorry, completely sold out at the end of 2014 while my driver goes to college. That's why I'm trying to figure out what to do now that he'll be back for next season.

[stew60]

Hi all, first off I'm from Australia and we only have one class of midget but I do like the whole D2 thing for us average Joes who work for a weekly wage and race for the fun of it. What I can't understand is why on earth you would want to start restricting the stock block engines with rpm limits or air restrictors etc etc? Racing costs money, always has and always will! If a stock block midget is out of reach $ wise then rather than trying to restrict them down to suit your budget, go race a TQ or a wingless lightning sprint.... Midgets are supposed to be light weight overpowered excitement machines that make the hairs on the back of your neck stand up and make the crowd in the stands be in total awe of anyone brave enough to strap in and have a go!
Try running a midget down here on a shoestring, it's bloody hard! I've thought about selling my car here and buying a car there to run with Illini so I'd have a chance at a top 10 or top 5 finish, here with 6 year old stealth and 8 year old gaerte finishing 10-15 would be like winning!
I'm not having a go at anyone, just frustration at seeing something good happening and people still having a whinge because it's still not cheap enough?!
Anyway, race safe and keep it shiny side up guys
Stew

[TQ29m]

Stew, I'm with you on this, and I can't understand why so many want to further restrict a class that starts out restricted, this is racing isn't it, or do the non believers only sit on their butts, and want to peck out something they know nothing about, even with aftermarket parts, rods, pistons, cams, that's where the modifications end, and up to this point, you haven't spent anymore on parts, than you would if you installed "stock" parts, and in MHO, you need to do this to get into the 260, 275hp range to make the difference between a go engine, and a show engine, it just wears me out to read this drivel, after all, it is racing, and when you add that to anything, it becomes expensive, just happens, and the more you try to limit the cost, the more it increases, I don't think there is anyone out there, that has actually owned a race car, or go-kart for that matter will be able to say anything here is wrong, like I've said before, even if the power is a rubber band, and racing is in the header, the cost goes up expotentially, lets face it, there is no "stock" engine, and ask anyone who has ever ran a "stock" go-kart engine class, just how much you can spend to make it just a half horse better, don't try to put a limit on cost, it isn't reality, you just be as practical as you can be with rules, and keep it as simple as you can, just because they are called racers, doesn't mean they are stupid. Bob

[Backitin]

Daddyz got it right.
Its racing, its expensive.
It doesn't matter about rules because guys will always find a way to blow there money.
I here all the time that theres no money for guys to race, yet 3 guys within a block of us have at least 30 grand in there Polaris utvs. If I go down to the country store or the local watering hole there might be up to 20-30 razr's parked outside on the typical summer weekend. All are tricked out and uber expensive. Almost all these guys also have big bucks invested in snowmobiles. All these things you just walk into a local store and leave 100% ready to have fun. You have to build or setup nothing.
If you are driven to race you do what you have to. Most all racers I know skimp in other areas of there life to be able to race. Racers race, they find something to get there rush. Guys on the fence whine about money. If your low budget and really want to race midgets aint your thing anyhow.

[jdull99]

To all who say (in one way or another) "racing cost money"; I'm gladly accepting checks, money orders, or out right cash at 1114 Glen Forest, Machesney Park, IL 61115 (contact me for paypal or even Chase bank transfers if you'd prefer that way). And or I'm searching out the latest & greatest "OEM 2.4 D2" (idk what to call it) parts.

Thankfully, a couple longtime fans of open wheel racing ARE sending some support. We would sure be interested in more; to run additional races with whatever the latest & greatest "OEM 2.4 D2" (idk what to call it) parts are available & prepare a safe & reliable car.

PS - no motorcycles or snowmobiles in my garage & I rarely commune at the "local watering hole".

[jdull99]

Also, I didn't start this post on my own idea...the biggest 3 full-out (some would say REAL - I respect all forms of midget racing) versions of traditional midget racing released joint rules on RPM limits...so it really isn't a far out idea I'd have to say...

[DAD]

Rpm Limiters and restrictor plates on face value seem like a very simple cure for many of the problems we see in racing, and an aid for the budget racers.

What is involved when we put these limits on racing? First thing off the bat it means hours and hours on the dyno. We will be looking for new cam profiles. injector sizes, header designs, compression ratios and on and on. All of this experimentation costs money and will go down many dead end roads while looking for the right answer.

NASCAR teams have divisions that do nothing but restrictor plate engine development. In many instances the restricted motor turns just as tight an an unrestricted motor it just takes longer to get there. The rev-limiter motor accelerates just as fast however it is limited to peak rpm's. Both theories require experimentation to achieve maximum performance and that puts the racer with the most money to spend on development once again out in front.

Most racers have yet to grasp the advantage of the 4 valve motor over a 2 valve motor. The cam in head 4 valve is superior to the push rod 2 valve motor in two distinct areas. First and fore most is Volumetric efficiency (VE) >>> How much air can the engine draw in over all of its operating conditions that the engine is expected to perform in. The 2 valve motor can flow as much air as the 4 valve can however to do it it requires a very large intake valve and very high lift and very long duration cam shaft. That means that the 2 valve motor can produce lots of horsepower at high RPM's but at slower speeds it looses most of it's efficiency and performs very poorly. Because of those extra valves the little 4 valve motor has a much higher VE both at high speeds and at lower speeds. That means that the racer can use a much lower lift camshaft and also use a very mild (almost stock) cam profile and have VE equal to the 2 valve at high RPM's and because of the cam timing and valve lift it can also be very efficient at slow RPM's.

The second advantage is that the use of small light valve without the mass of push rods and rocker arms allow these motors to use lighter weight valve springs with the lower duration and lift camshafts and rev just as high or in many instances much higher than the 2 valve motor is capable of. A big advantage is they require much less maintenance with the milder camshafts, and valve spring replacement will become a task of the past.

The jury is still out. Basically there are now two schools of thought. Both schools have elected to require Stock crank shafts, cylinder blocks and heads a very positive choice. Neither are allowing changing of the ports by porting or welding. One class is mandating stock pistons, valves, and camshafts. The other has allowed aftermarket valves, pistons, engine internals and camshafts. So the question would be how much advantage can be expected with these changes. I see somewhere between 15% to 20% in power from the Badger rules with most of that coming from that extra compression.

Don't make it complicated.

Remember the engine you are racing today should have disappeared in another 5 years and will have to be replaced to keep cost in line.

Engine displacement is being lowered with the use of inexpensive forced induction to achieve the same or better performance, (start thinking about this development. It is already in use today on inexpensive family drivers right now)

Gang "Times They Are A Changing"

Honest Dad himself

[jdull99]

Yep...it will be interesting in 5 years when those smaller engines are mandatory & they outlaw all the 2.4s! lol

[DAD]

Jason

There should be no need to outlaw anything if the rule makers use their heads. The 2.4 will be like General Douglas MacArthur's old soldiers they will simply fade away due to attrition and lack of available good replacement engines.

We aren't in the 1950's or 1990's anymore. Junk yards are no longer, they have been replaced by Recycler's like Pull A Part. The car comes in one day the fluids are drained, the car sets on the lot for a month or two or until the most popular parts are removed, then the car is removed and shredded down to be re used again. The newer bigger yards actually have foundry's on site that are capable of melting down entire blocks or cylinder heads leaving behind the steal and other parts and the melted aluminum is cast into ingots before they ever leave the yard (That would be your 2.4 engine).

My statement is simply do not expect things to stay the same like they always did in the past. We have moved away from that way of doing business. Racers are going to have to either change as the economy changes or relegate themselves to racing very limited production and very expensive racing engines.

Better start working on how to restrict and check that boost pressure on the race cars.

Honest Dad himself