360's? Why not just 305s?

cmiracingvids · 12/31/09, 12:33 PM

I know this has been discussed, but I think it warrants more debate. I see people asking for a track to run 360s weekly. In my own opinion i think this would be a waste. The price of competetive 360s is comparable to most 410s around here. I've seen what they do with 305s in Ohio and I ask the question...why not wingless here? 305s are cheap, affordable, and easy to maintain and keep running. (spec tire, and steel wheels) I dont see a weekly wing show anytime in the near future for any track in Indiana...so why not run them wingless somewhere?
Personally I think Paragon should go this route...it tends not to be a horsepower track, and its for the budget racer anyways. Sounds like a no brainer to me but, I'm just one guy...so what do I know right?

Your thoughts?

JordanBlanton · 12/31/09, 1:01 PM

With the vast array of engines that can be (and are) competitive at a place like Paragon, why change? Why split up the car counts when a guy with a cheap motor and steel wheels can compete with a guy that has a 410 and aluminum wheels? There was a post in one a thread recently that was something to the effect of "It used to be 2 classes of 24 cars each, now it's 24 classes of 2 cars each." We haven't quite reached that extreme here yet; let's not push to get there.

Lucky161 · 12/31/09, 1:21 PM

I'm a big fan of 305s and 360s both. I would be a fan of 410s too if I could see enough of them, but I can't around here. It's not the displacement per se, but what can be done with them according to the rules. In my opinion 410s have priced themselves out of decent fields of cars. In my area, I can regularly see ASCS regionals with 30-40 360s and occasionally 50 or more when the national tour comes around. With the 305s, the series that runs in this area regularly has 28-30 cars, never less than 20 and run 4-5 non wing shows too. On the other hand the farthest I drove to see a race this year was a WoO race that only had 15 cars and three of them were locals, possibly running 360s.

I have an idea for a 305 non wing class that would be super cheap and in my opinion would put on a good show. Have them run 305s with spec heads and 500cfm 2bbls. Copying the Racesaver formula of starting with a used chassis for around $3500 and that motor should run about $2500. $6000K turnkey, little maintenance, about 300+ hp. Of course that's not a lot of hp, but it's more than enough to keep the tires spinning on a dry slick track. I'd still want to be able to see the 360s and the Racesaver 305s w/wings, but that's my personal choice.

cmiracingvids · 12/31/09, 3:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JordanBlanton

With the vast array of engines that can be (and are) competitive at a place like Paragon, why change? Why split up the car counts when a guy with a cheap motor and steel wheels can compete with a guy that has a 410 and aluminum wheels? There was a post in one a thread recently that was something to the effect of "It used to be 2 classes of 24 cars each, now it's 24 classes of 2 cars each." We haven't quite reached that extreme here yet; let's not push to get there.

I certainly understand your concern, and respect your opinion. However, only about 3 years ago, Paragon used to have 35+ cars every night. Now it seems they cant get past 30. Lawrenceburg (the best regular show payout in the state) had as little as 18 cars last year. The problem isnt there are too many classes (there's only 1 - 410 non wing) there's too many places to run. With USAC, MSCS, the now ASCT, Putnamville, Paragon, Lawrenceburg, and sometimes Terre Haute and Tri-State...there's just waaay to many choices on a Saturday night. Kokomo does ok with its Sunday night deal, and Gas City and Bloomington seem to have no problem getting big car counts on Friday nights.

What I'm saying is simply this...a SPEC sprint car series...with rules that LEVEL the field while at the same time keeping cost down, could and I think WOULD work in Indiana. If there's steel block guys that want to run and be competetive, race with the ASCT. They have some 2000 to win shows, and their rules keep it competetive. Granted they do travel a lot. I think a sprint class that is somehow regulated so that every car is equal is really where the best racing can be found. You don't get beat by a pocket book, you get beat by a driver. I simply say 305s because I know they are affordable.

MissouriSprinter · 12/31/09, 5:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmiracingvids

I certainly understand your concern, and respect your opinion. However, only about 3 years ago, Paragon used to have 35+ cars every night. Now it seems they cant get past 30. Lawrenceburg (the best regular show payout in the state) had as little as 18 cars last year. The problem isnt there are too many classes (there's only 1 - 410 non wing) there's too many places to run. With USAC, MSCS, the now ASCT, Putnamville, Paragon, Lawrenceburg, and sometimes Terre Haute and Tri-State...there's just waaay to many choices on a Saturday night. Kokomo does ok with its Sunday night deal, and Gas City and Bloomington seem to have no problem getting big car counts on Friday nights.

What I'm saying is simply this...a SPEC sprint car series...with rules that LEVEL the field while at the same time keeping cost down, could and I think WOULD work in Indiana. If there's steel block guys that want to run and be competetive, race with the ASCT. They have some 2000 to win shows, and their rules keep it competetive. Granted they do travel a lot. I think a sprint class that is somehow regulated so that every car is equal is really where the best racing can be found. You don't get beat by a pocket book, you get beat by a driver. I simply say 305s because I know they are affordable.

Affordable? They can be if teched correctly. Getting everyone on a level playing field will be near impossible unless the motors are bought by the track they are running and rented every week. Just my opinion, but I don't want all the cars to be equal. JMO We need to bring inginuity back into racing.

Jack Dupp · 12/31/09, 9:20 PM

Riverside International Speedway West Memphis, Arkansas runs a 305
non wing class.
http://www.riversideinternationalspe..._NWS_rules.htm

A wing drags down a 305 pretty heavily. Without the wings I understand
that they put on a pretty good show.

Pine · 12/31/09, 9:41 PM

In my opinion, you have the PERFECT amount of divisions in Indiana.....Sprints, Midgets and Silver Crown Cars....

Lucky161 · 1/1/10, 9:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Dupp

Riverside International Speedway West Memphis, Arkansas runs a 305
non wing class.
http://www.riversideinternationalspe..._NWS_rules.htm

A wing drags down a 305 pretty heavily. Without the wings I understand
that they put on a pretty good show.

The 305 series I watch has both winged and non winged races and put on a good show either way.

They could restrict the 360s or even the 410s in the same manner as 305s and the cost and speeds would come way down. I'm not saying they should, but an affordable 360 series wouldn't be hard to do. Enforcement of the rules as in all racing would be the key.

It's not that a wing puts anymore drag on a 305 than a 360 or 410. Actually they would put a little less drag due to lower hp and speeds. It's this difference in hp that makes the differences more noticable. Racesaver 305s have a spec Brodix head that sells for $1200 and can't be modified, along with restrictions on valve springs and cams. Wings allow for better utilization of excess hp, but even with wings these
305s can still break the tires loose and pull wheelies just like the more powerful cars. But they are down 200+hp to the 360s and about 400hp to the 410s, so you can tell they aren't as fast without a stopwatch.

Ken Bonnema · 1/1/10, 10:17 PM

We've been running SPEC Sprints in Ca. since '99. They are 360 all steel, 2 bbl, NONWING

, and are self starting. SPEC = Sprint Parts Economy Class and my buddy Don O' Keefe wrote the rules. What started with 12 cars at Antioch has become 150+ strong ,competes at around 10 tracks and continues to grow. Here's a link to the Chowchilla rules :http://www.racechowchilla.com/Limitedsprintcars.html . The rules are pretty much the same everywhere although some tracks do allow race gas

along with alky. The cool thing is that a person can build their own motor or toss in a crate. For those of you that don't know Don, he and Linda have relocated to Pittsboro and campaign the LOK Ent. 0-k cars. Happy New Year to All!

12/31/09, 12:33 PM	#1 360's? Why not just 305s?
cmiracingvids Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,310	I know this has been discussed, but I think it warrants more debate. I see people asking for a track to run 360s weekly. In my own opinion i think this would be a waste. The price of competetive 360s is comparable to most 410s around here. I've seen what they do with 305s in Ohio and I ask the question...why not wingless here? 305s are cheap, affordable, and easy to maintain and keep running. (spec tire, and steel wheels) I dont see a weekly wing show anytime in the near future for any track in Indiana...so why not run them wingless somewhere? Personally I think Paragon should go this route...it tends not to be a horsepower track, and its for the budget racer anyways. Sounds like a no brainer to me but, I'm just one guy...so what do I know right? Your thoughts?

12/31/09, 1:21 PM	#3 Re: 360's? Why not just 305s?
Lucky161 Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 243	I'm a big fan of 305s and 360s both. I would be a fan of 410s too if I could see enough of them, but I can't around here. It's not the displacement per se, but what can be done with them according to the rules. In my opinion 410s have priced themselves out of decent fields of cars. In my area, I can regularly see ASCS regionals with 30-40 360s and occasionally 50 or more when the national tour comes around. With the 305s, the series that runs in this area regularly has 28-30 cars, never less than 20 and run 4-5 non wing shows too. On the other hand the farthest I drove to see a race this year was a WoO race that only had 15 cars and three of them were locals, possibly running 360s. I have an idea for a 305 non wing class that would be super cheap and in my opinion would put on a good show. Have them run 305s with spec heads and 500cfm 2bbls. Copying the Racesaver formula of starting with a used chassis for around $3500 and that motor should run about $2500. $6000K turnkey, little maintenance, about 300+ hp. Of course that's not a lot of hp, but it's more than enough to keep the tires spinning on a dry slick track. I'd still want to be able to see the 360s and the Racesaver 305s w/wings, but that's my personal choice.

12/31/09, 9:41 PM	#7 Re: 360's? Why not just 305s?
Pine Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 1,011	In my opinion, you have the PERFECT amount of divisions in Indiana.....Sprints, Midgets and Silver Crown Cars....

1/1/10, 10:17 PM	#9 Re: 360's? Why not just 305s?
Ken Bonnema Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 5,771	We've been running SPEC Sprints in Ca. since '99. They are 360 all steel, 2 bbl, NONWING , and are self starting. SPEC = Sprint Parts Economy Class and my buddy Don O' Keefe wrote the rules. What started with 12 cars at Antioch has become 150+ strong ,competes at around 10 tracks and continues to grow. Here's a link to the Chowchilla rules :http://www.racechowchilla.com/Limitedsprintcars.html . The rules are pretty much the same everywhere although some tracks do allow race gas along with alky. The cool thing is that a person can build their own motor or toss in a crate. For those of you that don't know Don, he and Linda have relocated to Pittsboro and campaign the LOK Ent. 0-k cars. Happy New Year to All!