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10/3/19, 5:07 PM   #21
Re: F1 - Halo to the Rescue (Spoiler)
jonboat15
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This may not be a PC statement, but I miss the days when I could see a driver(s) fighting the steering wheel through the corners. Now with the drivers being surrounded and encapsulated you really can't see what the driver is doing. I think that takes something away from the sport. Racing can be a dangerous and tough sport that will never be completely safe. Heck, look at bicycle racing, plenty of people get busted up doing that also just as bad if not worse than racecar drivers. Unfortunately iracing might be our future, anyone can do it and you probably won't break a bone or get a concussion doing it.
 
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10/3/19, 7:14 PM   #22
Re: F1 - Halo to the Rescue (Spoiler)
Brickyard
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonboat15 View Post
Heck, look at bicycle racing, plenty of people get busted up doing that also just as bad if not worse than racecar drivers.
I'm fairly certain that even the Tour de France went to mandatory helmets after a fatality in the early 2000's. However, they aren't running 230 around a track with their head exposed to flying debris such as heavy tires, parts, and pieces. It would be pure negligence on the part of safety officials and sanctioning body management in any type of racing to not improve an area that can be easily improved just because "this is the way it's always been done" or a bunch of internet jockeys that aren't driving those cars want to fill their diaper because they "can't see their hands working" or other various nonsense that I've seen the online the past couple of days.

The thought that this improvement is going to take the "thrill" out of the racing is just baloney. Formula style racing is still one of the most dangerous forms on earth, halo/aeroscreen or no halo/aeroscreen. Three incidents in the recent weeks in F2, F3, and IndyCar should be enough evidence of that. One driver is dead, one has recently woke up and has a long recovery and more surgery ahead, and a handful from the F3 and Pocono crashes are lucky to still have their heads attached firmly to their bodies.

There is absolutely no reason with the technology available at present time that we should continue running these cars with a fully open cockpit that allow debris strikes to the head. Could it have saved Wheldon? I lean more to not side, but it would have absolutely saved Wilson who had absolutely nothing to do with Karam's crash other than being in the wrong place at the wrong time and would have kept Hinchcliffe from being knocked unconscious in one of the fastest sectors of the IMS road course. Hunter-Reay has almost had a car land in his lap on three occasions while Rossi nearly had one land in his at Pocono. Just a couple years ago Power nearly got a rear attenuator to the face at Gateway.

As far as I'm concerned people will get over it just like they did with full face helmets, seat belts, rear engines, smaller fuel cells, no more gasoline, wings, street courses, road courses, those evil furriners and if they don't the rest of us of will continue moving forward and leave them behind to pout in whatever decade or century they are still stuck in.
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Last edited by Brickyard; 10/3/19 at 7:20 PM.
 
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10/5/19, 10:06 AM   #23
chrismattlin
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The problem is, Brickyard, that you and IndyCar keep leaving larger and larger chunks of fans behind in an obsessive search of progressivism. Before long, you and a few of your closest buddies will find yourselves alone in the "new decade/century". Safety first!
 
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10/5/19, 11:36 AM   #24
Re: F1 - Halo to the Rescue (Spoiler)
Brickyard
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Originally Posted by chrismattlin View Post
The problem is, Brickyard, that you and IndyCar keep leaving larger and larger chunks of fans behind in an obsessive search of progressivism. Before long, you and a few of your closest buddies will find yourselves alone in the "new decade/century". Safety first!
Those who would stop watching due to a safety advancement aren't fans to begin with, so good riddance. Not a single person with a functioning brain cell would allow their employer to be negligent in the area of safety and I highly doubt a single one, nor their families if it resulted in death, would wait more than a few hours to contact an attorney to sue the pants off that negligent company if an accident happened due to said negligence.

The fact is the tech has advanced to the stage that we can protect the only thing left unprotected in formula racing without changing the whole formula, even LMP2 went enclosed cockpits and top fuel has enclosed theirs. This ****'s still ultra dangerous just off the speed alone, look what happened when an F2 car was t-boned at Spa in Eau Rouge a few weeks ago. The danger aspect is still there and will always be there, but there is no reason we should have drivers injured or killed because they couldn't dodge and errant tire, a piece of body work, or have a car land on top of their exposed heads because one got flipped up on top of them or they ran up under the rear of one. I can pull up tons of footage in IndyCar where it has happened or we have come close to it happening and the chance of it has increased in recent history due to the closer racing that results in multi car accidents.

If you are OK with killing drivers with errant debris then by all means, kindly show yourself to the door.
 
10/5/19, 12:16 PM   #25
Re: F1 - Halo to the Rescue (Spoiler)
Stevensville Mike
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I always get this feeling when I see old footage of years' past, and that feeling pertains to how the cars appeared for their time and the fan appeal. Cars always change in design on the track. Once a huge change occurs in design, after a few races.... heck a few LAPS some times..... I have automatically adjusted to the task at hand - that being the race itself.

Let's look at F1. Here is the Wiliams driven by Nigel Mansell in 1987:



Look at how far forward the driver sits compared to centerline. You can also see his entire helmet/head from the neck up. No lateral support or safety. Note how the nose of the car is turned down straight to the pavement and the wheelbase seems shorter than today. This car also had active suspension, which since has been banned/discontinued in F1. Computerized suspension control. Absolutely amazing technology.
Nelson Piquet won the driver's championship in the other Williams that year.


A decade later, here is the 1996 Williams. Jacques Villeneuve:



Note how the driver is further back and a tad lower. Still no major lateral head protection, but a little better safety wise. The "shark nose" of that era is evident in that era of car.
Uglier than the 1987 version? Perhaps..... but more sleek. I got used to that nose quickly, and the stretched out wheelbase.


Now here is the 2005 Williams of Nic Heidfeld:



The one thing to note is the continued large width of rear wing. This wing, although enhancing the slipstream, severely hindered the cars in cornering when following another car. The tires are also grooved to "hinder" road contact. Funny how they could have just made less grippier tires, but bear in mind, there were two tire manufacturers in F1 at this time. These tires were ALWAYS ugly and ridiculous. Also note the T-bar across the top of the air intake. All had to run them for in car camera purposes, whether they had a camera installed or not.
Nowadays, I believe all cars have cameras, but the mandatory installation back then was to even out aero advantages/disadvantages. I do not even notice these things on F1 or IndyCars anymore.

Also, when two compounds were introduced and required to be used, here was the softer compound, denoted by the white stripe:



Actually, it was easier to spot than today's softer compounds where sidewall colors are changed.


For 2009, F1 reduced the rear wing and actually increased the width of the front wing to hopefully remove the "dreaded aero push":



This aero change probably took me longer to get used to than any other change over the decades, but like I noted earlier about looking back, I now feel a wide rear wing in F1 now would appear odd looking.

We also have the first major move for lateral head protection:




And last but not least, the 2019 Williams:



Although a back marker every round, we now have the halo and lateral head padding/protection. Personally, I think the car looks very sleek, and I do not even notice the halo anymore.
Now, it it were painted day-glo pink, or something, sure. But I do not even notice.



Little by little seeing the driver operate has been removed, yes. But after three decades, I don't even think about it - until I see old, and still good, footage.

What might look ugly now, looking back, was top shelf aero and tech back then. Some might see retro as cooler, others might see it as a "what were they thinking?" moment. Either way, I seem to adjust to any changes quite quickly as the sport of motor racing moves on.
 
10/5/19, 12:30 PM   #26
chrismattlin
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This is how extreme the clover safety culture has become. Always willing to excommunicate paying consumers on their endless crusade to control the behaviors of others.

And for who are they standing up for? No competitors have ever publicly clamored for any "solution". In fact, 90% of drivers have NOT come out to publicly support this initiative. You would think if so many fans were out there fighting for their safety at least a couple of these drivers would come out in support of the fans who are, supposedly, fighting for them.

I'll sit back and wait for the next derogatory dissertion on my status as a race fan and citizen of the world.
 
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10/5/19, 1:47 PM   #27
Re: F1 - Halo to the Rescue (Spoiler)
Brickyard
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrismattlin View Post
This is how extreme the clover safety culture has become. Always willing to excommunicate paying consumers on their endless crusade to control the behaviors of others.
You were the one saying people will leave because they no longer can see an individual get clonked in the head by a tire. I kindly showed you the path to the door, it's your choice to open it. I do find it sickening that someone would be so obtuse when it comes to safety. Racing isn't the only place safety evolves due to advancing technology and incidents.

Was I a girly man because I didn't want to be sent to war in the same gear as a Vietnam soldier and somebody out there thought Vietnam era gear complete with a cigarette dangling out of the mouth was "cooler" and completed the whole "war experience"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrismattlin View Post
And for who are they standing up for? No competitors have ever publicly clamored for any "solution". In fact, 90% of drivers have NOT come out to publicly support this initiative.
They haven't? They aren't? I wouldn't be so sure about that chief. These are the ones that posted something or gave comments during and after the latest test. I've seen others, not of this group, post or say things in the past that have eluded to if not out right said this is needed. Having paid attention to this initiative since Wilson and having talked to those in the paddock that are close to these guys it's closer to 90% than you think. I 100% agree with Marco. But hey, if you want to argue with them, they all have social media accounts. Have at it.

What I know from leading people and having been a part of safety initiatives is that many don't want to rock the boat. It takes a strong willed individual or group to effect change on a broken system, those are your Jackie Stewart types in the racing world. They will not counter those who have been on this thread or Twitter throwing their cat calls of "chicken", "pansy", etc with fists but with their minds. While they are leading the group up to the top of the mountain they'll leave those that would rather stay behind continuing on their path over a cliff and into a deep canyon. In other words, they'll leave what few of you remain yukking it up about how tough you are behind.

Will Power: “I’m so happy we have it. It’s a really huge step in the safety, and I think it ‘s the best of both worlds with the halo and the screen,” Power said. “I think you’ll see other racing categories follow suit. But when you think about it, you’ve driven it for a day, and I think you’re going to feel naked without it because there’s so much protection there.

I remember a couple times in the last five years on superspeedways … I went like this (bringing his forearm up to shield his face) with my arm, and that’s not going to stop anything that’s going to kill you. But that’s how much stuff you see flying toward your head and how lucky you really are to get through all that stuff anytime.

Dixon: “I remember hitting concrete walls (before the SAFER Barriers), and it wasn’t fun,” Dixon chuckled. “But this has been a huge advancement, not just for IndyCar, but for what they did for the sport. This has been something we’ve been wanting to implement, but you have to do it the right way with the right product and the right piece and right partners.”

Marco Andretti:To all the fans who think the @IndyCar windscreen doesn’t “look good”. Just remember.. it’s not your heads headed towards the fence. We welcome your responses in any other departments, though.

Rosenqvist: Good to see the aeroscreen live today, without any issues! Pretty or not - I like how @IndyCar has taken an approach without compromises. Don’t forget that we’re still racing on the most pure/hardcore tracks in the world, and for that to happen we need these updates.

Ericsson: Well done
@IndyCar. It’s a huge step for driver safety. And yes it looks a bit strange but everyone that criticise it should remember that always when there is big changes on the looks of racing cars (halo, new aero rules with strange wings etc) it takes time to get used to.

Newgarden: Lovin’ the look of the new aeroscreen! What do you all think?!

Jack Harvey: Thoughts? Personally... maybe not the prettiest but it’s still early. Thought the same about the Halo and now it’s normal. Huge step in safety and I’m always 100% behind that
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Last edited by Brickyard; 10/5/19 at 2:03 PM.
 
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10/5/19, 2:12 PM   #28
Re: F1 - Halo to the Rescue (Spoiler)
jonboat15
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That can't be the same Jack Harvey that is the crew chief for Jimmy Wilson, he would never say such a thing. lol. Indy car lost me when it went to fender cars. I still watch the 500 but that's it. BTW I don't like bullriders wearing catchers masks either.
 
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10/5/19, 2:32 PM   #29
Re: F1 - Halo to the Rescue (Spoiler)
Brickyard
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonboat15 View Post
That can't be the same Jack Harvey that is the crew chief for Jimmy Wilson, he would never say such a thing. lol. Indy car lost me when it went to fender cars. I still watch the 500 but that's it. BTW I don't like bullriders wearing catchers masks either.

Jack Harvey the race car driver. They haven't had the "fenders" since last year and that was an initiative to try and keep cars from ramping up into the air with wheel contact brought on directly by the Wheldon accident. Flying cars aren't a good thing for either drivers or fans and if you want ovals to remain safety initiatives like this have to be pushed.

BTW, it's not the first time there have been attempts to enclose wheels on an Indy car. What we have today is because other past initiatives were failures either due to being ahead of the available tech or lost in evolving rules. The current formula could have looked vastly different had multiple things been successful in the past.

I bet if you ask those riders they are glad they have that safety feature to use so they don't have to spend time in the ER getting their face put back together or much worse. My GF rides horses in competition jumping and I have yet to hear someone complain about have to wear impact vests or certain types of helmets. The reason why, just like auto racing, in bull and horse riding there are a million things that can severely injure or kill you, having something fixed that can easily be fixed is just one less thing to worry about.
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Last edited by Brickyard; 10/5/19 at 2:52 PM.
 
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10/5/19, 3:09 PM   #30
Re: F1 - Halo to the Rescue (Spoiler)
jonboat15
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I didn't know there was a guy named Jack Harvey racing Indy cars. Did he come from a short track racing background? Not sure about you but racing has always be exciting to me for several reasons, and the element of danger happens to be one of them, that's why every tom, dick, and mary doesn't want to drive a race car.
Maybe I'm a little wacky but in my mechanical professions I have had to do some unsafe acts for my employers that would have been big osha red flags but the jobs have to be done on time and I don't mind a little danger. If the prima donna drivers don't think they are safe enough maybe they should find a safer occupation.
 
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