[Bradleyracing86]

They mentioned a hard tire rule, but in southern Indiana from the months of June to August the guys who are fast are already using.
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[scott bradley1x]

I wish 2013 would get here already

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[dorsettracing10]

Nothing like someone pulling your head off after a race!
Head gasket (goodv one not cheapo)-$80
Labor $300
Oh and keeping everything clean!- NOT AT Racetrack!!
Boy that's a cost effective rule!!! I can tell you this!! Someone takes my motor apart and it is proven legal which it will be that person or association is paying for it to be put back together or I will race elsewhere!! Sometimes you just need to suck it up guys and go race ! Maybe it's not motors beating you!! Maybe it's setup car itself driving style!! Those are cost effective changes! Tearing a motor down is not cost effective! I'm all for stock motors and fairness but don't rule yourself silly with dumb stuff! Waynesfield will have a lot more cars if this continues! Think about it 25+ cars every Saturday night at waynesfield! Hmmm wonder why? All I'm saying is come up with something much more cost effective ! My opinion is Darometer a rr tire after feature! That way everyone can run what type of tire they want!

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[awnunn]

In case you all didnt notice but all he wanted on this thread was to know who was coming to the banquet.

[DAD]

Originally Posted by Quantrill Dad how much more HP does it give you going from 12.4 to 14.1 compression ration?

Well Mark that would depend on what your definition of Horse Power is.

There is some real horse Power left in these motors and most of that is in the top end -- Cylinder head and ports, cam shaft and valves.

In the late 90's the Japanese motor cycle makers had saturated the market with 600cc cycles. Yamaha and Honda began to develop the 1000cc motor to increase sales. When Suzuki and Kawasaki saw the market they jumped in there also. This also started a Horsepower race between the bike manufactures. They weren't greedy and I guess they let one another improve the breed and let them keep their advantage for a couple of years until the next guy got his turn. They were only shooting for a 4 or 5 HP increase and the best way to do this was head design. Just slight tweaks in port design or valve design was enough to get the desired results, and they kept selling more bikes.

We haven't seen them yet, but a few years ago BMW decided they also needed a pocket rocket, they had no deal with the Japanese so they jumped in with both feet. They developed an engine with a 20+ HP advantage over the other liter bikes. Sometimes sooner or later a racer with more money than brains is going to get a hold of one of these things. When you can find one on EBAY they go for 5 or 6 thousand dollars each and no where even close to fitting in a car. Like a beautiful woman they will probably have a very high up keep and parts are very hard to find because you must buy these parts through the "AGENCY" So I really don't look forward to seeing one of them soon.

Lets get back to our average $6000.00 dollar race motor. Like I said most of the HP is in the top end.We can mill the head about .020 before you run the piston into the valves. These motors love compression, and the head mill is probably the cheapest HP you are going to find out there. Most bikes makers and Cometic gaskets also have thin head gaskets If you choose not to mill the head. These bike are so precise that all one has to do is mike the head from the top of the head to the bottom of the head and compare it with a known stock head. You won't get a lot of HP here but it will help you on starts and coming out of a tight turn. You could probably check this without removing the head if you wanted to.

Porting is also a way to increase power. It is called Volumetric efficiency (VE)the more air you can get in the motor more power you can make. They don't give you a lot to improve on here. If you just grind down the bumps at the valve seats and match the ports you have just about maxed out your 5 axis porting job ($1500.00.) Not too much to check here.

Valves> by making the valves larger you can increase VE. This requires new valves. Most factory valves are already Ti, as light as you can get. These OEM factory valves are forged and have an indention forged in the head to form the tulip shape under the valve to direct the air flow. After market valves are machined instead of forged because it is easier to do in small numbers and by keeping them flat on top they also raise the compression inside the cylinder. (This is pretty easy to check with a bore scope. and does not require removing the head to check)

Valve springs Well as president Reagan said "There you go again." We could design a scale to check valve spring pres on the seat and at a certain lift also. But With a stock Kawasaki or their race cam They do not recommend heaver springs and the revs can be increased to I think 13500 rpm.

The super secret cam shaft. Whenever I get beat I always think cam shaft, it just has to be the cam. This thing is where the engine builder makes a big difference.
By advancing and retarding the valve opening and closing events he can change the point where peak VE is reached. This will not make much more power but will change how the motor performs on the track. This is hard to check for but> what the hey we weren't going to check that anyhow.

Racing cams, Now we can sure check for these things. We have three types of racing cams> factory racing, regrind cams and welded racing cams.

Factory racing cams are produced by the factory for their racing teams. I don't know about the rest of them but Kawasaki keeps the same lift and just open up the cams a little faster to increase duration by about 8 degrees, Not much help here they just drop in and away you go and after you spend a couple hundred bucks for the darned thing you know it just has to be faster.

Regrind cam shafts. These cams are reground by the cam grinders to make mild timing changes to the cam. They do this by grinding the cam off all the way around , decreasing the base circle of the cam and changing cam ramp design. (most service manuals give stock cam dimensions if the cam does not come up to spec it is probably illegal.

Welded cam shafts> These cams are made to make more power. These cams are ground down then welded back and then ground for longer duration and more lift. They generally always require heavier springs and special pistons to work. There are a few times inside there when piston and valves get awfully close together so we have to notch the piston more for proper clearance between the two. ( You can sometimes see these cam shafts because of the welding done on them, and a mike check will sure prove it, still don't have to pull the head.)

Pistons> These things are expensive about like $700.00 a set for the simple drop in type. You can order these things special (usually about a month wait) to raise the compression ratio as much as you dare to. Menthanol loves compression. In the old go kart "B BOMB" days we would keep using thinner and thinner head gaskets and lapping the head until we could just read the piston oversize marks on the combustion chamber of the head as the piston bounced off of the head, that is as close as you could get without blowing the motor and it also made the most power there. I am told that several midget builders are doing this also.

Our motors are so far advanced from the old two valve midget motor it aint funny. Our engines come stock with the pistons machined to match the shape of the combustion chamber. There is a small rectangle in the center of the piston that can be used to adjust the compression ratio but as you raise this portion of the piston that rectangle keep getting smaller and smaller and easy to see with a bore scope. If nothing else a JE or Wisco piston is just a lot prettier than the factory stock piston on top. ( Still no need to pull the head.)

If someone pays $6000.00 for a race engine and they can't change Valves, Pistons, or Cams they probably also raced 4 cycle karts and are used to getting the old shaft on engine work. There is not much that you can do to one of these things that can't be checked with the use of a mike and a bore scope.

Since all motor are different it would be nice if every team had to supply a workshop manual for their particular year and make motor. They can find them on the internet and just print the motor section. We had to do this years ago in the 600 cars.

If any of these things are suspect then give the team the choice of a tear down or the opportunity to race with another group.

Honest Dad himself

We will probably talk motors a little. Bill is probably getting a lot of flack about why I'm getting beat. I have a super good driver my car is super high tec I payed somebody $6000.00 to make my motor faster SO they must be cheating.

Back when we had a few super light cars I was one of them guys b!tching. If you have a rule you have to enforce it or you take the risk of p!ssing people off. The stock motor rule is great I have attempted to show you guys some ways you can tec these things and not tear them all the way down and put someone out of business.

We used to race with a guy we called "stinky" Doug hated following him. He is still around even if not racing, I would strongly suggest fuel samples sent off to a lab to check ever so often with a zero dopeing polocy.

[Mike M 67]

Bill
Nathan and I will be there, also I believe my wife and 2 girls will be there also.
I will have some Beer, But if you need a lot you may want to bring some with you. (Dont forget to bring someone to drive you home)

Looking forward to seeing everyone on Dec. 1st and the chance to talk about next season.

Nathan will not be racing with us next year as he is going to be racing a modified. Beau will be back to race with us again for 2013 in the 71B, Never know I may even keep a car and run some next year in the 71, we will have to wait and see.

Mike Mensendiek

Originally Posted by Bill May The MMSA would like to thank the 75 cars (33 Members & 42 Guests) from 7 states that raced with us in 2012. We completed 15 races (10 cancelled,rain & heat) resulting in 9 different winners on 8 tracks ranging in size from 1/5 to 1/2 mi. Making 2012 another successful season Banquet details are posted on the MMSA website, 2013 rules are also posted. Bill may

[scott bradley1x]

Thanks for the beverage info mike .

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[DAD]

Originally Posted by scott bradley1x Thanks for the beverage info mike . Posted via Mobile Device

But as seniors we drank Liquor because we found it so much quicker!

Honest Dad himself

[Quantrill]

Dad,, lot of food for thought on your post. We had two cars that were blistering fast and there motors sounded deeper and throatier then anyone else. Both 06 R-1. Compression and cams?? Can you check for High compression pistons with a compression gauge? Or does valve over lap prevent this from being a useful tech tool?

[TQ29m]

Too many variables to ck with a compression gauge, best done by cc'ing at TDC, or, by measuring thru the plug hole, to the top of the piston, with a depth gage, or vernier, and compare with a known diminsion, which would be subject to question also. 2 stock engines might vary quite a bit, due to "parts stackup". That, to me, is the inherit problem, with running "stock engines", too much variation between stock parts, due to factory tolerances, that's why most good engine builders, will "blueprint" you a motor, taking the go-nogo parts to an advantage, ala Briggs, for instance! Bob