Odd.....Doesn't it seem interesting that about the time you quit hearing: "It's a new track record" at the Speedway....the crowds started diminishing?

I know what I know, I believe what I believe and if I am wrong then I am wrong. Thats fine.

Without going into some long winded thing backing up those things, I'll just say this: The real problem isn't cost driven, it's culture driven and cost's are a symptom.

Have none of you played three card Monty? You're always watching the Ace, but the Ace doesn't exist because it's a smoke screen. Just like the cost of motors isn't the real problem.

Do not get me wrong....if a motor can be produced that meets the things I said in the previous post, then I am all for it. If it is anything that cannot compare to what is being run today.....or is not part of a long term program that truely benefits the racers; then it's not the right direction. Just a gimmick.

---------- Post added at 10:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10 AM ----------

By the way......What do you think people....todays Indycar fans....would think if the cars went back to running 150mph?
I don't care if you had 100 cars there....there would be no fans. At least none born after 1970.

The reality is that racing has never been cheap!!! I listened to my Grandfather talk about the money that was spent to campaign sprint cars and Champ cars that he was around in the '50's and early '60's. If you compare cost of living and income between then and now it cost just as much then as now and the guy with the most money ran up front.

As far as engine cost, as long as there are people willing to spend big bucks on engine the cost will stay up. Simple supply and demand issue, as soon as engine builder realize they can't sell an engine for big money they will have to lower cost or close their doors.

I think we need to concentrate on getting fans in the stand and at the same all the sanctioning bodies need to work together to help make the sport more economical. Cost have gone up and purses have stayed the same not unlike many business these days. The cost of doing business is going up but profit is down. If we put fans in the stand it is a start to being able to increase purses.

Not if it was side by side racing with passing going on. We can't say one way or another because this will never happen with the speeds.

I think that the biggest issue surrounding midget racing, and increasing the car count is the lack of racing. How many tracks have weekly midget racing?

Let's assume for this conversation that we could get a reliable engine for $12k. Now lets assume that we could get a competive roller for $13K for a total investment of $25k. While this is a lot of money, in the world of racing it is not. However, where is he going to race this car?

I can go to any track in the country and more than half of the modifeds at that track have a greater investment than $25k. The difference is that the modifed driver with hs $25k car can race two sometimes three nights a week without having to do any significant travel.

What midget racing needs is a way to make it a weekly class again. Develop a set of rules where a car can be ran for $25k, (the same as a competive modified), and have several tracks in an area agree to run the cars. I really believe that this is very doable.

My final point is the speed issue. I completely disagree. When 360 sprints came along everyone said that no one would want them because of thier lack of speed, espcially with a wing. Now there are more winged 360 cars than any other type. I would also be willing to bet that now there are more weekly 305 sprint car shows than there are weekly 410 shows.

Lets not leave out the fact that back when VW's were the hot setup you couldn't pick them up for a dime a dozen like you can now. And alot of people thought they were to expensive and formed chevy 2 only series so the average midget guy could afford to race.

here is my spin on this. racing was and always will be expensive. that's not going to change. in my opinion what needs to change is the payout. get away from the big money on top and no money on the bottom. as an owner i need about 400 dollars to pay my weekly expenses. that's why it's hard for me to go to a race that pays 150, 200 to start. i look at money to start because my car probably won't win. i know that. i'm sure many owners feel the same about their cars. if a race paid 1500 to win and 300 to 350 to start more owners may show up. the more cars that show up hopefully more fans show up. look at the gold crown, excellent purse, 48 cars. if you made the main all 3 days you probably did o.k. there is a differece between racing for the love of the sport and leaving 100, 150 even 200 dollars at the track every week. all i want to do is make back my weekly expenses. i know the initial cost of the car is a total loss until you sell your car. than it's like only a 50% loss.

I found an old Open Wheel Mag from December 2001 today while cleaning the garage.

There was an article on the Esslinger 155cid engine. It was basically a pissing match between Esslinger and Ed Pink. Esslinger said their $20k engines were less than the Pink $30k engines and were cheaper to run due to the rebuild costs. Pink claimed that there was no way that Esslinger was making a profit at their price point.

Fast forward now 9 years and look at where the engines are now...

Well....Lets say there were three doors lined up and one led to a 305 race, another to a 360 race and another to a WoO 410 show.... I would bet the majority of fans would go through the WoO door.

Typically 360's and 305's run for less purse, so many tracks will have them as their weekly show. Not always, but typically.

Esslinger still offers that same motor at 161ci for the same price as they did 10 years ago. Better motor today than at that time. Still for 20,000 to 22,000

There are plenty of midgets with Esslingers or other style motors available for 25,000.

So many people are willing to trade the quality of the sport today for a percieved quantity of cars in the future. I just really feel though that if given a choice of which door to go through....many people would still choose to go see a USAC or Powri race with 25-30 cars verses another series with smaller spec engines but with 50 cars racing. The reason in my opinion is because they know with the USAC and Powri show they would be seeing the best of the best and the car count really didn't matter after all.

Actually it does happen each week as most fans go see the local sprint cars race with 25-30 cars verses seeing a field of 30-40 micros race.

By the way...41 Midgets at Belle Claire for the Charlene Meents Memorial. 40 last week for the Gold Crown.....

Question is....did any of the people saying they would go see the midgets race if they had a bigger car count actually stay home and see their local sprint show that had 23-30 cars at it?

If car count is the true measuring stick....why isn't the Tulsa Shoot-Out more popular than the Chili Bowl? It has nearly 4 times more the amount of cars racing.

There is plenty of side by side racing today.

I wrote a post about the exact subject (weekly midget racing) about a month ago and it was dismissed as I would have suspected. I agree with Leaders Edge in that engine costs are far from the main issue affecting midget racing

It seems that in midget racing (and all racing for that matter) everyone wants the sport to be governed by socialism. The people who can no longer afford to race feel that sanctioning bodies should control or implement measures that would "lower costs", in essence take from the rich and give to the poor. What people forget is racing is a privledge, not an entitlement.

LMAO! The supposed experts have it figured out!

According to the experts in this thread, the way to have great racing is to throw more and more money at/into the engines, chassis, tires, etc. Cause you know, racers will be racers..........

So, I think it's about time to get the midget engines making a little over 600HP, and costing $75,000 each.

I'm sure with those improvements, the pits will be overflowing, and the stands will be packed....I mean with all of the new track records, and side by side racing that the added expense and wicked speed will create, how can the owners and fans not love it!

Sadly, the experts missed my point about the VWs.

When everyone was running them, those engines were costly, the midgets were plenty fast, and the racing was plenty good. Currently the costs to have essentially the same thing (a midget ready to race) have multiplied by what factor?...2x, 3x, 4x, more? Has the car count multiplied by the same amount, what about the quality of the racing, or the fans in the stands, how about the number of races, at what amount have those items multiplied?

Pavement only midgets and sprints have created the same problems. Did the guys who once had the money to spend on the latest/greatest/fastest equipment, suddenly decide to go fishing, and leave the race car in the garage???...or did reality finally sink in?

BTW, when the 1970's USAC sprint car had a 302ci engine in it, I doubt anyone was telling guys like Pancho Carter and Sheldon Kinser that if they had another 100 cubes under the hood, they wouldn't be so damn slow, and the racing would be better.

I'm sure that the 410ci engine, and the amount of money that the top owners spend today on engines, tires, shocks, testing, the haulers, etc, have cured all of the issues that plauged the '70s.