[kdobson]

From what I have gathered in putting the class togeter the attraction is different for different folks, but the most common scenario in our particular circumstance is this...

We have a very competitive group of 410 drivers with MOWA. At the moment we have a lot of cars and experience in that class. Making a show and getting laps isn't easy. The jump from a Micro to a 410 winged sprint is a big one both in equipment and learning curve.

I have discussed several ways to have a Sportsman division for 410's with the same engines - there's just no way to do it and be assured that there's room for the new guy in the field. I've kicked around having non-winner races, or races only open to people not in the top 10 in MOWA points and bring them to Jacksonville to get laps and experience. The problem is that by excluding talent in a 410 race you aren't being fair to the fans unless you pay a lower purse and corresponding lower ticket price.

I'm sure if we paid a 500 to win, 100 to start purse for 410's the problem would solve itself and much of the talent would stay home. But once a 410 starts racing for a lower purse, that will soon become the norm and experienced drivers with nothing better to do will start showing up since it's close to home - and that's not healthy for the sport long term.

The solution as we see it is to make the 305's at Jacksonville an easy entry point for the person who either is just starting out or a veteran who might have given up racing awhile ago. Once they make the initial purchase of a roller and 305, they are half way to taking the next step of having a 410 - since they already have the roller. Later they just have to sell their motor to buy a 410 for the next step. They get laps and experience with a motor that should run a really long time.

Used parts and equipment (hand me down's from 410s) will be competitive. They won't burn up tires. Horsepower shouldn't be a major factor. Although the cost of a 305 is slightly lower than an older used -12 410, the cost per night to run the engine should be significantly less. I figure that with my 410's at a winged race my engine expense is roughly $300 per night and we are going to at least burn up one $200 tire. From all indications with an average 305 and used tires it should cost less than $150 per night in motor/tire to race.

There are probably several ways to skin this cat of having an attractive entry point for Sprint Car drivers. I firmly believe that $10,000 well spent should make you competitive night in and night out at Jacksonville in the 305 class. Having owned both 410's and 360's, I can't notice any difference in cost in racing either one. I strongly feel that the nightly cost of running a 305 on a track like Jacksonville will be significantly less.

I've been wrong many times before, but from the feedback from those planning to participate, there's no doubt that it's an attractive option.

[DAD]

Originally Posted by Stevensville Mike Enlighten me a little, men. What is the big attraction for having a 305 series? I am assuming it is cheaper to run? If so, how? Do some tracks who run 305s offer spec engines? That could lower the cost. If not, it seems like, to me, one could drop just as much $$$ into a 305 trying to win as they could a 360. If that is the case, then why create yet another sprint series with 305s when we already have 410s and 360s? Seems like it would just spread things out and thin them out. Or is the idea to make the engines smaller, reducing HP, and subsequently running them on tracks 1/4 mile and maybe even smaller? The "real" upside? Just trying to learn over the off season .

Way back in the 60's I thought them little 305's were flyin on them big old mile tracks with Parnelli and Aj an Herk , heck I left out Mario out there banging wheels.

Racing and speed are relevant to one another, If they are all pretty close together you have a pretty good race going on.

A 305 dates back to 1957 or so that not as old as me but still pretty old. There are no good stock blocks left only aftermarket(MONEY). We used to bore a 283 out to 4" BANG!! 302ci. that thing was a Rocket Ship.

There are some 24 valve V6's out there almost brand new that could be bought for less than $2500.00. They make as much or more horsepower stock than a built to the hilt 305 could. They could be raced forever and a day with very little maintenance. They don't go bad very often in the street version (300,000 miles is normal) so the junk yards are loaded down with them.

Why aint some forward looking race car organizer looking into this. This could make someone a lot of money.

The rule book should read like the Mini Sprint rules. Bone Stock engine, After market injection and methanol conversion "REQUIRED". That in itself would make it safer and probably add 75+ horsepower. Most of the intakes are restricted on these things to protect 8 Balls from themselves.

Honest Dad himself

[SamSr32]

I beleive your on the right track. It is to bad a larger number of people who make comments on this board are not as knowlegable. Cost of Sprint Car racing has gone crazy and there is now a big market for your ideas. It was brought up about Ohio 305 class, but it is an out of control cost situation also, no one ever put cost regulations on that class. RaceSaver rules are a cost effective Sprint Class and you are following their lead. I would like to see the same thing started in Eastern Illinois and Western Indiana and follow your rule setup. If anyone is interested in this area (Terre Haute), get ahold of me. Sam Stockon Sr.

[DAD]

I would like to see something on the order of a Midget stretched out a few inches to make room for a slightly bigger motor and a Sprint Sized driver.

Bob East did something like this a few years ago I think?

Honest Dad himself

[Stevensville Mike]

Thanks for the reply, Ken (and everyone else). Like I said, I am just trying to get my head around the basis and promotion of 305 sprints.

[kdobson]

Originally Posted by SamSr32 I beleive your on the right track. It is to bad a larger number of people who make comments on this board are not as knowlegable. Cost of Sprint Car racing has gone crazy and there is now a big market for your ideas. It was brought up about Ohio 305 class, but it is an out of control cost situation also, no one ever put cost regulations on that class. RaceSaver rules are a cost effective Sprint Class and you are following their lead. I would like to see the same thing started in Eastern Illinois and Western Indiana and follow your rule setup. If anyone is interested in this area (Terre Haute), get ahold of me. Sam Stockon Sr.

We aren't doing the Racesaver... not because it's not a great concept, but because we plan to have a handful of cars from Burlington, Iowa as we start the class to supplement our new cars from our area. So we went with the Burlington rules as our preferred engine package. It's basically a stock 305 block that allows aftermarket cast iron performance heads. Opinions will vary, but it seems most of them are just North of 500hp. Probably a little more aggressive than we would want if we were doing it ourselves, but there are 20 cars with that rules package an hour and half to our North-West.

However, we are going to allow most any engine configuration that can be verified as being more or less "harmless" against the standard engine. This would allow a guy that finds a Racesaver complete operation buyout to come out and get laps without sitting at home waiting to find or build the right steel head engine. From our research the Racesaver would be down about 50-75 HP. If a guy happens to want to make a sealed 604 crate engine (400ish hp) work in a sprint car since they are readily available, we will let him run it as well. At Jacksonville, it probably isn't going to make a huge diference. I doubt he wins in a crate or Racesaver, but he can get cheap laps.

The whole key is to try to prevent the Big Fish in Small Pond syndrome. We hope that having a thriving 410 series in the area will prevent this. Who really wants to throw a ton of money at being the king of the 305 division when the 410's are running the next week. Some will of course, but we are committed from keeping it from happening. We might handicap starting positions to discourage it as well.

When you see all of the 410 drivers owning a 305 along with their 410 and all of the same guys driving 305's as 410s... you will know we failed. The point isn't to have guys buy a second motor to race for less money. It's to get new guys, or underfunded guys to the race track. This doesn't mean that we won't let 410 guys drive them, but hopefully when they do it's just occasionally for the pure fun of it.

In visiting with the Burlington 305 guys, the one thing I consistently hear from each one of them is "This is the most fun I've had racing." So there's something to it.

[nathan48moore]

The racesaver deal works because of the purse. It does not pay "great" to win. But it does pay well enough to start that it becomes affordable. If you want to keep "top" guys from racing in it don't pay a lot. Eagle in Nebraska is going imca racesaver this year. It will add a lot of cars to that area. Here in Texas in just a few years they have went from 10 cars to around 200 in the area. It works well and you can be real competitive with a 7,000$ engine.

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[SamSr32]

KDodson, I only agree and applaud what you are doing. More promoters and track owners better wake up and get with your program. I did not mean you were a RaceSaver follower, but I read Burlingtons' rules and they are basically RaceSaver with a view valuable changes, which I agree with. You know there are many race upgrades that this could cater too. Quarter Midget graduates, Mini Sprint Racers, Modified Racers looking to go to Sprint Cars. These people already have enough money invested in what they are doing now. As the 410 races loose cars because of cost, this is a market to get new people started in the sport. Thanks for looking ahead and Good Luck!

[nathans1012]

Wish someone (track or series) would do something like this in Indiana with 305 winged or non-winged sprints and let people that like sprint car racing have a more affordable opportunity to do so.

[kdobson]

Thanks Sam... but we don't want 410's to lose cars because of cost per se. We are all for a healthy 410 series and car count. Part of the advantage we have racing wing 410s in Illinois is that we can do it on fairly small tracks without totally abusing an engine night after night. If MOWA ran on the Iowa half miles night in and night out, the 410 costs would likely double - and our group of guys just couldn't afford that enough to maintain a healthy series.

One aspect where fans and participants need to maybe get on the same page is understanding the ramification of a huge car count at a 410 race. As a series official, I love to brag a little when we can say "we had 35 cars last night". As a track, we love it too because we can pay a 20 car payout on 40 entries. And there's no doubt that the fans often judge the quality of some events based on the car count being huge.

But when 35 cars show up to a race that pays 20 spots, 15 cars are going home with just tow money. Those 15 cars ran almost the same number of laps as the winner because of the Consi and their costs to race were likely similar. I fully appreciate the great competition involved in having to fight to make the field, and there's a lot to be said for that in making an event exciting.

But we all generally know prior to the race many of the cars that are going to struggle to make the show through a lack of experience or equipment. Many of them are just starting out, trying to gather funds to buy parts and just wanting seat time and experience - with no expectation of winning the event. Some are there simply so they can race due to the lack of an alternative. While I applaud and respect their loyalty and dedication, what if we had a separate class for those guys and the main event was a 20 car 410 race and a 15 car 305 race?

The cost of paying the 15 non-qualifiers $100 tow money is $1,500. For $1,500 more for a total purse of $3,000 we could have a totally separate 305 class where they can gain experience at a lower nightly cost and even have a realistic chance of ending the night in victory lane?

Would the fans consider the show as good as the 35 car 410 field? Probably not. Many would complain about the lack of cars. (This happens at a weekly Knoxville show where there can be 60 sprint cars on hand between 3 classes and the fans complain that there weren't any cars.) But for some racers, this is a more affordable and realistic way to gain some experience. I realize you have to race the best to be the best, but you also have to be able to afford to race 30 nights to actually race 30 nights - or else the fishing pole looks like a nice alternative.

Right now at Jacksonville we can't run 410's and 305's on the same night because several of the cars getting built are by relatives, brothers and crew members of our 410 cars. But if the class can grow, we could easily put on 20 car 410 shows with 20 car 305 shows which seems much better for the health of the sport - except I'm not sure the fans would buy in.

Just my 2 cents. Not meaning to turn this into another "Costs are out of control" thread.