[Aces&Eights]

Hello all,

I'm new to the sprint world and I have a few questions. My background is Dirt Late Models since I was 16. I raced karts for 10 years, worked on DLM's for 30 years and worked for Carrera Racing Shocks from 98'-04'. Recently the major DLM sanctions, in reaction to one driver winning several races decided to change the suspension rules. I've spent the last 30 years designing, developing and perfecting different rear suspension and chassis designs for these cars and now with a few key strokes from the sanctions all my work has been rendered unusable. During the off season I discovered the "Dirty 30" show on lucas oil tv and instantly was amazed by the Non-wing Sprints. Wow, they are exciting! I'm in Georgia and sprints aren't part of the scene, occasionally a regional Winged 360 tour will come thru, but never the Non-wing cars. Anyway I've been surfing the web ever since trying to learn what I can and I want to try and get something like the 602 Wingless cars started down here. Anyway here are my newb questions:

1) What is a "Wedge" chassis and what makes it different?
2) What is a "5 Bar" car or a "4 Bar"?
3) What is a "Big Max" Maxim car versus a regular car?
4) I see in ads people listing 86/40, 87/40, 86.5/40, I'm assuming these are wheelbase references, which is better or most popular for non-wing?
5) Front axle width, I see Maxim std is 50"x2-1/2, but the 602 wingless come with a 53", what does wider do?

I'm sure I'll come up with more questions later, but this should kick things off.

Thanks,

Aces&Eights

[Racer12]

A wedge chassis most likely refers to a raised left side lower frame rail. That way with a wing it doesn't bottom out. A 5 bar car is a torsion bar chassis with a front sway bar on it, 4 bar is a torsion bar chassis no sway bar. 86/40 refers to 86" wheel base and 40" driveline length. 87/40 would be the most common one used. As far as front axle length goes with a wing you run 50" non-wing 52"-53". That way it is more stable on the RF. It takes weight off of the right front on corner entry, therefore making the car more stable.

Bob

[Aces&Eights]

Originally Posted by Racer12 A wedge chassis most likely refers to a raised left side lower frame rail. That way with a wing it doesn't bottom out. A 5 bar car is a torsion bar chassis with a front sway bar on it, 4 bar is a torsion bar chassis no sway bar. 86/40 refers to 86" wheel base and 40" driveline length. 87/40 would be the most common one used. As far as front axle length goes with a wing you run 50" non-wing 52"-53". That way it is more stable on the RF. It takes weight off of the right front on corner entry, therefore making the car more stable. Bob

Thanks Bob, That helps me a lot.

I thought of a couple more question if y'all will indulge the new guy a bit.

1) I notice in a few of the vids I watched that a common failure is the RR breaking off with catastrophic results. Is this a result of fatigue from too many races or just something that happens from time to time?

2) Why do these cars randomly bicycle? Is it a setup issue? I understand sometimes catching a hole wrong, but I've seen guys go off in the corner sometimes seemingly the same as every other lap and it looks like the car just lays down on the RF and pitches up on the RR... Driving Error? Is it just how things are? I understand this question may be too broad, I'm just trying to learn as much as I can and prepare myself.

[TKRacing]

The wedge I do not believe has anything to do with being a raised rail. That usually just simply called a raised rail car. The wedge chassis refers to the back of the cage being higher than the front by usually 1.5 to 2 inches I do believe. At least that's how it was when I ran Triple X cars and they came out with the "XWedge"

[smith19]

kevin rumley sure has bloomer scratching his head!!!

[Aces&Eights]

Originally Posted by smith19 kevin rumley sure has bloomer scratching his head!!!

Quite a few scratching their heads over that duo. Me and Davenport are from the same area and I knew he's be a force
to be reckoned with eventually. Rumley and Davenport are the perfect storm.

[Whit11B]

1) wedge refers to the cage being taller in the rear than the front, giving it a sloped look.
2) a 5bar car is built with the sway bar tube as part of the chassis. This uses 4 torsion bars and a front sway bar. Pretty much specifically built for nonwing. 4 bar cars are built with just torsion bars, but there are bolt on/weld on sway bar kits.
3) on a big max chassis the upper frame tubes extend further behind the cockpit before bending down to meet the rear torsion tubes.
4) those are chassis measurements, the first number 86,87,88 are wheel base length. The second number is drive line length 39,40,41 the distance from motor plate to rear axle.
5) wing cars generally use a 50" axle, nonwing uses a wider front axle and run the right rear further out to create more offset to the left and create a wider wheelbase.

1d) right rears breaking off is caused by axle/wheel center fatigue from running a light weight axle to many nights or from contact with walls/cars/big gnarly cushion that feel like walls.

2b) cars bicycle because they are setup to tight, catch a rut, driver hits the cushion to hard, it is how things are. Not much weight, wheel base width, or down force to hold them down.

[Aces&Eights]

Originally Posted by Whit11B 1) wedge refers to the cage being taller in the rear than the front, giving it a sloped look. 2) a 5bar car is built with the sway bar tube as part of the chassis. This uses 4 torsion bars and a front sway bar. Pretty much specifically built for nonwing. 4 bar cars are built with just torsion bars, but there are bolt on/weld on sway bar kits. 3) on a big max chassis the upper frame tubes extend further behind the cockpit before bending down to meet the rear torsion tubes. 4) those are chassis measurements, the first number 86,87,88 are wheel base length. The second number is drive line length 39,40,41 the distance from motor plate to rear axle. 5) wing cars generally use a 50" axle, nonwing uses a wider front axle and run the right rear further out to create more offset to the left and create a wider wheelbase. 1d) right rears breaking off is caused by axle/wheel center fatigue from running a light weight axle to many nights or from contact with walls/cars/big gnarly cushion that feel like walls. 2b) cars bicycle because they are setup to tight, catch a rut, driver hits the cushion to hard, it is how things are. Not much weight, wheel base width, or down force to hold them down.

Thank you, Whit11B

That explains a ton. Personally, for me I'd rather give up a little weight and know my RR wasn't leave at a bad time, those wrecks look the worst from what I've seen so far.

Who are the best Non-Wing builders?
Does 5 bar make a difference in stability?

[TKRacing]

DRC Chassid in Indy
Most guys with 5 bar cars don't even use the sway bar anymore. Everything has kind of went back full circle to no sway bars. Monkey see monkey do.

[Backitin]

We ran speedwaybikes in Georgia a few years back. It was a car track so a bit hairy on a bike, but the clay was some of the nicest stuff I ever saw. I remember it being red as heck and was nothing like the black clay we have up north.
You might also want to think along the lines of microsprints to maybe try to get something started. The nonwinged 600's are the only nonwing cars within 3 hours of us but its pretty big. They get a lot of cars, it's competitive and entertaining. You can have a good car on the track for 1/3 to 1/4 the cost of a crate sprint. I see really nice rollers for sale say $3000.00 add another 1500 for engine from crashed bike and I'm guessing here but maybe another 1500 for accessories which only needs to be bought once. Compare that to a used 602 engine which runs around 8 grand. With that and your knowledge you'll have a good solid like new race car.
just something else to ponder over if the full size sprints are too much of a stretch at first.