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Re: Aluminum v6 midget
"Injection with filter (Kinsler) $3600
Header (Shoenfeld) $490 Oil pan $425 Fuel Pump $500 MSD/Electromotive ignition $1400 Dry Sump oil pump (Barnes) $2100 Dry Sump Tank $450 Drive gears and belts $300" & that's how it starts...a bill of goods is sold as "junkyard engines" (or any of the such, its NOT only in this form of racing) & then one guy that has money/connections/manufacturer support shows up with something that was not really in the rules, and then everyone else has to play catch up & things get out of hand (not just "D2". 2.4, etc; pretty much all racing)...ALL because officials won't stand up to their original rules to the connected/well financed/manufacturers...for some reason, they are afraid of telling ONE or TWO in those positions, they can't have what they shouldn't (usually people say "well that isn't what made them fast"...ok, why did they spend $1000s + on smthn that wouldn't make them fast or add longevity to their program???)...BUT then, SOME of the same officials or series, are somehow "ok" with starting a whole new program (or additional series, segmenting what they have) and telling everyone to start over...all just because rules weren't contained in the 1st place... In direct regard to this whole deal (NOT just one series or sanctioning body), the simplest way (to start) would be: Add 50lbs and 16 PSI to any car that does not have and OEM injector. Much of the same (+) for anyone with more than a 10deg lay-over (I don't know how many/if any; allow; but) no carbon fiber or titanium allowed anywhere on the cars either...it doesn't matter if they found it in the forums for cheap...just don't allow it... & I of coarse I agree with the hard tire...BUT also, only allow ONE purchased per race night (obvsly more to start the year)...they have a form of this rule at my local NASCAR stock car track (so I'm not just making up smtn that isn't proven out)...everyone has a "tire bank"...idc if the guy that won five features all did it with the same RR, just DON'T ALLOW someone to buy a bunch every week (regardless of it they do or don't)...it can be figured out...if anyone wants to... Cockpit adjustments: If USAC sprints don't allow them, these forms of racing sure shouldn't...I would think anyway... |
Re: Aluminum v6 midget
Originally Posted by Ray3: This engine is not allowed in our series I compared apples to apples. New D2 to new Badger. The fact is they are basically the same price. The difference is one performs better and has better reliability due to better internal parts. I have NO IDEA what you mean about "NEW" D-2....there are STOCK engines out there that is over 8 years old...I have 1 of them and one just won the 2018 GDN You haven't made a dime but have you or are you planning to receive a free or reduced cost engine that is completely rebuilt and not a junk yard special like you want others to use? Why is it good enough for others to use junk yard specials when the owners of the series receive free or reduced price rebuilt engines? I have not made a damn dime because I give it ALL back to the racer...I have NEVER received or am NOT planning on receiving anything for my cars so you need to quit with the he said she said crap and get YOUR facts straight, unlike others do. And Yes I have and do run "JUNK YARD" engines...2015 championship was won with a totally stock 2.0 focus from Rusty Acres I bought for $375.00. I am running a 2.4 ecotec with the stock intake and plenum for this year..again get your facts right Also, lets tell everyone where the rules were first! Badger style or D2? Cause if I recall the current Badger style rules were implemented in 2013 with the IMRA. Then D2 rules were implemented in 2016. Less do tell everyone the TRUTH ...D-2 was started in 2011 when I coined the name for my series that allowed Focus Midgets/Ecotec Midgets/Motorcycle powered Lightning sprints to run together as 1... spoke to USAC in 2014 about trying to help save the OLD Focus series by the had put all their faith into the HPD deal. In late 2015 3 groups (series) wanted to copy my said rules...IMRA and I was even 90% close to the same...I contacted Kenny in late 2015 about these rules and about we needed to try to ALL get on 1 (one) set of rules, thus the St. Louis meeting in 2016...My rules were way more radical then what was being discuss and I gave into WAY to much for the betterment of MY Division II such as I did not want ANY carbon Fiber at all...others did...I did not want ANY titanium...others did...I kept NO rotating Ti.....I did not want Dry sump...they kept it I did not...I lobbied for flat top aftermarket pistons being they all wanted aftermarket rods but the 3 ecotec engine builders did not want that because the LE5 ecotec is the ONLY stock piston with 11.1 flat tops and that rule would have brought the other engines being implemented uo to the same compression...In fact my EXACT words was "Do you want this to be an ALL Ecotec engine series...... So don't make it sound like Badger rules came later. I still have all the rule books and revisions with dates if anyone would like proof on that as well. Also, your rules in Florida do not match those of the MTM or the IMRA so which series is the real D2? And remember, you're in Florida! Not really a hotbed of Midget racing action. You are really in no position to tell other series what their rules should be. Yes BADGER rules did came later....LOSSMS, MTM and IMRA are exact other than the piston rule and as far as D-2...both call themselves SpeeD2 not D-2....My series is based in Jacksonville Florida but race in 7 different states 14 different tracks not just 1 or 2 tracks ....YOU are right I am not in a hotbed for midget racing here in the south. I am trying my best to do something that several has told me it CAN NOT be done...My series was founded in 2010 and still going even though I have had to fight tooth and nail against people just like you...I have beliefs and Ideas just like everyone and do the best I can, yet you and a couple others continue to beat me down and I continue to get up, brush myself off and continue...What I am proud of the most is we do not race for small purses like others do..yes I have had to pull $$$ out of my pocket on several occasions but I will never not do what I told my racers I would do... speaking of purses...what is yours? Here it is: for 22 cars 1 $1,000.00 2 $500.00 3 $350.00 4 $250.00 5 $200.00 6 $180.00 7 $170.00 8 $160.00 9 $150.00 10 $140.00 11 $130.00 12 $125.00 13 $120.00 14 $100.00 15 $100.00 16 $100.00 17 $100.00 18 $100.00 19 $100.00 20 $100.00 21 $100.00 22 $100.00 ours for 24 cars: 1 $1,200.00 2 $700.00 3 $500.00 4 $450.00 5 $400.00 6 $375.00 7 $350.00 8 $325.00 9 $300.00 10 $275.00 11 $250.00 12 $250.00 13 $250.00 14 $250.00 15 $250.00 16 $225.00 17 $225.00 18 $225.00 19 $225.00 20 $225.00 21 $200.00 22 $200.00 23 $200.00 24 $200.00 And that is what we all should be racing for.... I asked a really good friend of mine who is a former CEO of two very large companies how do we institute change in our sport. He told me to post verifiable facts and people will see the evidence and come around. Some day I think I'm going to introduce him to the people who argue with me so he can see how ridiculous people can actually be even when confronted with verifiable and factual information. Would love to meet him and introduce FACTS....:20: In Closing: Racing, we all love it and we all are passionate about it for their own reasons. All series are not perfect, we are not perfect and their was only 1 that was and it was today 2,018 years ago, he was taking because he was perfect. Remember that before you start casting stones.. Where ever you race, whoever you race with just please if you own a midget, get it out of the garage and go race it...SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL RACE TRACK!!! |
I'll give you some facts.
This D2 crap is just a spin off of what the ILLINI, UMARA SPORTSMAN, series was doing for more than 20 years. But some people think they knew how to make it "better" Makes me laugh when I hear people say the golden answer is go smaller and harder with the tires. Kinda like what they had? 8" D.O.T. tires. Thier old rules worked great, ANY engine was legal to run. Thier restrictor package ALONG WITH the hard smaller tires people are asking for worked as a good equalizer. The cheapest way to go race is to not have to go out and buy a new engine package, and tires every week. But it all went down the sh$t tube when people cried about not having a "real" race tire. Then this D2 insanity started and they changed thier rules to try to help uniformity. That's when the series tanked, went from averaging 20 cars a weekend to 6-8 cars. Pretty sure poweri realized that badger's rules were way easier and faster to tech and anyone who has raced with those guys knows there is lot less crying going on up there. Badger is doing thier own completely different deal, shouldn't even be discussed in the same sentence as any D2 club. D2 needs to go back to something simular to what the ILLINI rules used to be. It was THE cheapest way to race week in and week out. That is what you D2 guys really want right? But keep crying and asking for rules to fit your agenda. Pretty soon things will go back to the way it used to be, shut up and run what ya brung. Seems like that works pretty well at the chilli bowl. Or better yet we'll all have no place to race anymore, we can sit at home and Irace, or whatever the hel* the snowflakes call it. |
Re: Aluminum v6 midget
I vote for sealed/spec shocks too...
People that gota see track records to validate their time at the track, can go watch a USAC race (good for them it appears they will have a good car count this year...just not at Bellville tho...or IRP...or Winchester...or Salem...or Sun Prairie...etc...etc...) |
Re: Aluminum v6 midget
Originally Posted by jdull99: I have beat myself up trying to save racers a few bucks...They want to be able to OUT SPEND each other and really don't give a rats a$$ about saving $$$... instead of getting and spending on a national midget they would rather drop down to a lower class like Badger/IMRA/MTM/POWRi Eco Midgets/SSMS and out spend those that just want to go race so they can brag about that little Black and white checkered flag not how much $$$ it pays cause they (some anyway) don't want or care about the $$$...and seems that none of these (series) want to be on the EXACT same rules for 1 reason or another...D-2 will die just like the Illini series did because of the BONEHEADED BS like you are reading on here. One thing I can say is my rules are written for 3 years and do not change much even then...They have been the basic same rules since 2011 except what I deleted in 2016 at the St. Louis meeting that we all agreed upon and now you have people that are not D-2 that keep complaining that they are this or that...Just worry about YOUR series...Go by the rules you set in stone...tech and be fair and treat everyone the same no matter if they have 1000's of dollars or just a few hundred's of dollars in their car to race....But TECH if you have rules..I DQ'ed a Fri. night winner at this years GDN and he is an owner of a race track we are trying to get a race at...That did not in no shape or form keep me from DQ'in him at the end of the day we all need to take a deep breathe and go have a :32: together:22: that's all I got to say about that!!:22: |
Re: Aluminum v6 midget
Originally Posted by the1jet17: |
Re: Aluminum v6 midget
Originally Posted by Wayne Davis: Originally Posted by : Originally Posted by : https://static.wixstatic.com/media/f...cd7d9f~mv2.jpg https://static.wixstatic.com/media/f...5bd16e~mv2.png This is called unethical behavior. People who own a series should not be allowed to have a car in said series, period. This is why racing series should be non-profit with an elected board of directors who can be voted out by the members. Now I'm officially done talking about this crap. |
Re: Aluminum v6 midget
Originally Posted by LJC77: |
Re: Aluminum v6 midget
Originally Posted by Ray3: "Now I'm officially done talking about this crap." THANK GOD you are done....AGAIN ....as you were done 8 post back...but than.... you are self-proclaimed GOD's GIFT to midget racing... "So the question was whether you have received or are planning to receive a free or reduced cost engine. You have denied that." I do not own that car to began with....Darrin Davis owns the 92...Did he buy ..again BUY the KMOD engine? And if he did get sponsorship from KMOD for his car what would it had mattered?? and yes he is my son and I do try to help him get sponsorship...of course your dad or brother never help you do that did they?...you spurt you month off about everyone here that does not conform to your ideas or delete them like you did on the IMRA post...what's even worse... nope not gonna say... The $15,000 dollar engine is dry sumped...Dry sump is not allow in our series...of course you knew that but wanted to start crap anyway Oh yea...Happy Easter:32: |
Re: Aluminum v6 midget
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[QUOTE
The $15,000 dollar engine is dry sumped...Dry sump is not allow in our series...of course you knew that but wanted to start crap anyway [/QUOTE] Wayne, I have been asked by several people if I would build them a D-2 engine. I have turned them all down, partly because nobody seems to know what the rules are day by day. Now you claim dry sump engines are not legal with your D-2 series, but your own Gater Dirt Nationals flyer for 2018 says wet or dry sump is ok. Which is it? Do you tech cams? If so, what method and or tools do you use? What are the legal cam specs for each engine (including the motorcycle engines?) Do you consider any manufacturing and/or measuring tolerances when determining the legality of the cams? What is the maximum compression ratio for each engine (including motorcycle engines?) |
Re: Aluminum v6 midget
Originally Posted by copper14: How would you go about enforcing a rule mandating "junkyard motors?" Should the owner be allowed to rebuild his "junkyard motor" if he used all stock O.E.M. parts? What if he rebuilds it and rubs grease and dirt all over it afterwards? How would any of these problems go away by switching to "stock V-6 engines?" |
Re: Aluminum v6 midget
[quote=MRAY3;491590]
Originally Posted by : Originally Posted by : Tech, we use several tools like bore and scope to check pistons/bore and stroke. We pull headers back to look for porting...we have the air cleaner removed for intake port inspection...we have a spark plug removed for piston inspection for flat top only pistons and valve and compression chamber inspection. We check charging systems along with clutch and all gears in MC engines. We check for rotating Ti including drive shaft. This is done before each race...After we have pulled cam covers to look at cams...must be oem and have oem markings there is not a lift or duration spec so I do not tech that...we check tires ..even have sent samples to lab.. If I suspect I will pull an engine completely down to check stock equivalent pistons...if the piston protrudes outside the block and crankshaft lightning ... I do not think anyone else techs as much as we do but I am a believer of it...If you do not tech then why have rules? I do not mind DQ'ing racers that break the rules hence the winner at Fri nights GDN got DQ'ed. Thanks for the questions Mr. Ray and I hope I answered them for you and hope you enjoy Easter with your family |
Re: Aluminum v6 midget
This is our SSMS rules: http://www.ssmidgets.com/midget-rules.html
Addmement 1a. Piston must be 3 ring design. Aftermarket cam gears, sprockets, timing chains, timing belts may be used. All other STOCK OEM cylinder head components must be used. Welding on the cylinder head will NOT be permitted. Porting of the cylinder head including intake matching is NOT ALLOWED, see (*). Machining, grinding, sanding, or etching of the intake and/or exhaust ports is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. No altering of the shape and/or size of the intake or exhaust ports from OEM specs is allowed. Fuel Injection: Constant Flow Mechanical or EFI with plenum or individual runner intake. Any programmable ignition/fuel injection systems are allowed, but must be readily available and have supported software. No carburetors. (*)Notes: We are aware that there are many “built up” 2.0 Ford Focus engines out there. While we do not expect Focus engine owners to “fix/replace” any possible changes that have been done to the engine, we do remind that the Focus/SCREAM engine can not utilize any other head except the 2000-2004 Focus factory head. No aftermarket heads of any kind. Porting and polishing of Ztec head is ok. Focus Engines: Aftermarket pistons (JE), rods, cams, cam gears, springs, valves, retainers, keepers. Adding, removing, lightening, chamfering or “knife edging” crankshaft counterweights is strictly prohibited. Must remain stock stroke...2 mil over bore ok, JE piston # 298717 or 298718 Oil System: Wet Sump Engine Management Systems may use the following sensors: MAP (manifold absolute pressure), TPS (throttle position sensor), Crank, Cam, Water temp., Oil temp., Oil Pressure, Oxygen sensor, Fuel Pressure, IAC (idle air control, MAT (manifold air temp.), and EGT. The use of Wheel Speed Sensors with management systems is prohibited. Traction Control is illegal. |
Re: Aluminum v6 midget
Wayne,
You answered some of my questions, but I find it interesting that your rules are different for your regular series and your biggest race, but since it's your series, that's totally up to you. And I completely agree with the statement, "If you do not tech then why have rules?" Your rules call for stock O.E.M. cams, but your only method of enforcing that rule is a visual inspection? No measurement at all? What about the compression ratio limits? What is the maximum compression ratio allowed (motorcycle engines and car engines?) And for the record, I can't get any D-2 series to answer either of these questions. I believe the competitors deserve to know whether or not they are racing against all legal race cars. If the actual requirement for cams is "they must look stock" all the racers in the series should know that. In order to prevent major conflicts in tech, that is how the rule should read. |
The reason I do that is because it is for all series and there are a few that differ from one to another like the flat top piston rule....Some racers from down here can not go race with the IMRA or the MTM because they are “STOCK” only pistons which would be ok if all stock engines had the same 11:1 piston in it as the LE5ecotec does..... I have considered a compression test and am going to be gathering data (checking different cars) this season to implement it for 2019. My guess would be somewhere between 8-15%. And at the same time we will be testing a spec shock package for next year....and 1 way I will implement this is that we the series will have a couple of brand new shocks and at any given time the tech director can bring you a brand new shock and swap it out with your shock.... No it will not be as costly as most think because most everyone has their shocks rebuilt over the off season so instead of rebuild you buy new ones... Thank you for being some substance to this post....this is what it is supposed to be instead of the other BS.... Thank you
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Re: Aluminum v6 midget
Racing today is stupid and getting dumber every day. Rules end up helping the best cheaters, the ones with the deepest pockets. Ends up costing more to build a cheat engine then just build a competitive engine in the first place.
It shouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that you can spend a billion dollars on a car but it wont be any faster then a elcheapo on harder skinnier tires. The best racing by far I ever saw was on skinnier, harder tires. Your trying to tell me nobody has it in them to run a harder tire fast or even try ? It all comes down to this age were in, always has to be faster even if the end product suffers for it. You can race whatever division you want in a car, I promise you there will be high dollar cheaters on the track with you. Run what you brung and hope for someone with brains to figure out a tire solution or at least a step in the right direction. |
Re: Aluminum v6 midget
Midgets of the 50's, 60's, and 70's all had narrower tires, smaller circumference tires, and harder tires. They did not have specialized high-dollar shocks either. The engines produced over 100 less horsepower than today's Midgets have. A good car, a good engine, a good mechanic, and a good driver still came out on top. Reducing the cost of racing will make it possible for more people to race, but the people who know how to win, will continue to win. No rule will ever change that.
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Re: Aluminum v6 midget
You all are aware that Ford Racing had 2.0 Zetec head listed in their parts catalogue that was CNC Ported and Polished and a very good piece. They were also identical to the stock head externally. They are out there, no longer available from Ford Racing and very rare these days. My point is they were a factory head.
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Re: Aluminum v6 midget
Originally Posted by MRAY3: EXACTLY Mr.Ray D-2 was designed to get people back into midget racing without having to get a 2nd mortgage on your home. It is suppose to be a working mans class not a who can outspend class You don't need carbon/titanium/$15,000 dollar engines or $3,000 dollar shocks to go race and enjoy yourself....I'm all for anyone that will spend that kind of $$$...just do it with Badger/USAC/PowrI/ARDC not D-2.... Maybe 3 free pit passes and 5 gal of fuel with NO PAYOUT is the answer like the DMA does |
I just can't see the point in limiting engines to 2.4l (200hp stock) and then spending $ to try to get more HP when a v6 already has more HP (stock) for less than $2k. Ideally I think we need to narrow up the rear tires, but to save people buying wheels and new tires the idea of minimum tire pressures to harden the side walls and try to "crown" the tire a little too lessen grip could be the easiest cheapest way to get the same result (less tire traction) the cheapest horsepower is cubic inches and if you suddenly have more torque than you can hook up, the incentive to spend $ to get more is eliminated. The blue collar worker needs to see this division as affordable and within their grasp. Eliminating engine tech also eliminates all the associated ******** that goes with it. The aluminum v6 engines with forged components might have once been cost prohibitive, but these are now found in stock engines from various manufacturers everywhere. Bottom line.. If you can cost effectively get more HP/torque than you can hook up.. Then yes.. The engines will even last longer and the best setup and driver will see again rise to the top and cubic dollars will not solely determine the outcome. At no time would I suggest creating another class but rather including any engine under 3.8l. (including cycle engines) and let the teams choose their poison
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Re: Aluminum v6 midget
[quote=Wayne Davis;491594]
Originally Posted by MRAY3: |
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