Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

The central region of the the country is having a meeting of all interested Lighting Sprint organizations in an attempt to standardize a few basic rules or guidelines and help determine an accepted tech procedure. This meeting is scheduled for November 16, 2013 in western Indiana. All organizations are encouraged to send some sort of representation. Whether you accept or decline any of the decisions/suggestions, your input and experience would be most appreciated. After all, we are all striving for the betterment of Lighting Sprint racing and this is an opportunity for every organization to contribute to that cause.

If interested, please contact Mark Billings (573) 289-7708 (mbillingsracing@gmail.com), Phil Heavelow (913) 371-5212 (jmillwright@kc.rr.com) or Damon Fortune (812) 208-7835 (dfortune@wolfesautoauctions.com) for exact time and location. Plus a means to determine body count for a lunch that Mr. Fortune has so graciously offered to provide. For a better controlled and efficient meeting, we would like to see 1-3 individuals for any interested organization. Therefore, it might be advantageous for those individuals to conduct their own regional meeting prior to the November meeting to determine what issues each group wants brought to the table for discussion.

Please note this is not intended to be a “binding” rules meeting. Simply an effort to determine some basic guidelines and tech procedures for some of the the upcoming “National” caliber events and possibly a standardization process between organizations. At this time, this is NOT an attempt to actually form a “membership required” National organization.

This is a great idea!!!!

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

The response has been encouraging. We anticipate some really good information and ideas will come of this meeting because there are some really experienced and knowledgeable people planning on attending. Looks like some "motor" men will also attend so maybe some accepted tech procedures, if nothing else, can be determined. Going to be an interesting meeting. Looks like just about every central region group plans on sending a rep or two.

Baby steps to National rules and this might be the first one..........

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

RULES***RULES***RULES*** K. I. S. S. :):11;;)

Mini sprints have always been and I guess always will be a class devoted to entry level racers. There will always be new racers starting out racing a few years and then moving either up and or out. They all have dreams of that elusive first win and how they are going to feel and to some even how they are going to get up on top of that wing for their first wing dance. They may spend tons and tons of money on cars, shocks, air cleaners, alcohol conversions and custom built motor chasing that dream. When it does not come over night, they naturally thing that the guy doing all the winning is cheating.

What Mini Sprints need to prosper and grow is a new classy name and super quick way to tec the motors to find and get rid of these cheaters amongst us.>>>>>> Like the old coach would say "You guy's ain't keeping your eye on the ball!"

It would be wise to stop paying so much attention to motor specs and pay more attention to what really wins races. Some of these things might be**********

1. Driver experience and ability. Some are born to be drivers, some have been tutored by exceptional good retired drivers and others just work years and years to become winning racers. It doesn't happen overnight.

2. Car and driver weight. I have been preaching for years and years about what would be a fair weight for all concerned. Any race car is controlled by weight. In go karts they have gone so far is to have the class determined by weight. Light, medium, heavy, and really heavy or "pumpkin patch". Then they found out that the Junior classes were faster than the Seniors so they mandated restrictors for the carburetors to keep the kids slower than their dads. The same thing I understand is done with the "sidewinder Junior class".

Grown ups grow up different. Some are 100 pound jockeys and some are 250 pound football players. We have proven that driver experience can make up a lot for the extra weight but the guy just starting out does not have a chance. Since we weigh every race. Why not set the minimum weight at the average weight of the field of the previous year. I can hear those motor tec people crying as I type these words of wisdom. These are the same people that spend so much time sitting on the scales before the race getting it down to the last ounce. All weight should be in the form of a lead plate placed right under the drivers BUTT. Then we would not have to worry about .049 roll bars and thousand of dollars spent on Titanium Bolts. If you got the money to spend on these things "BE MY GUEST".

3. Get a Tire company to sponsor the group. American Racer builds a very good tire. I think they would be responsive to being a major sponsor if we could come up with enough race cars buying their tires.
I have had several talks with Ron Ambrose one of the winningest TQ drivers, and Mini Sprint owners in the mid west. Ron's IDEA a really hard spec right rear tire. My reply to him was won't that play right into your hand and give you a big advantage over the other racers, His reply to me was a "WINK".
Lets go a couple of steps further with the tire idea.

a. Also set up a minimum durometer reading to be taken at the time of weighing the car and driver.

b. Have the tire company install a bar code serial number on each tire. Require that the same serial number be used for at least 4 to 6 feature races. (Sticker tires are faster no matter the compound)

c. The tire company would publish the minimum price for each tire. and the race director would be responsible for keeping track of the serial numbers (a simple smart phone ap.)

d. The tire company should publish the minimum selling price for their tires and donate a percentage of the sale to the points fund for each group. The problem with most spec tire deals is the racers seem to think the promoter is making a huge profit on the sale of tires, some times true sometime not. Lets try to get rid of that idea and perhaps if done right we could even save a few percent in our tire bill.

Good Luck on trying to figure out a way to keep these little motors down to 200HP instead of 220HP. The motor cycle manufactures did not leave a lot of room for improvement on what is already near perfection. You guys can keep on looking for cheater motors, but I doubt if you ever find one. Those guys are usually racing a little further back in the pack.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

That K.I.S.S. system got us where we are today. It worked for awhile but it's day has come and gone. No one wants to deal with this issue but I think most of us agree......something needs to be done. After talking to people in the various groups.......the same problem keeps popping up. Built motors. Even the "rumor" of built motors deters participation. Car counts are falling in most areas. Is it because of the economy or could it be this built motor issue? Can't do anything about the economy but something might be able to be done about this motor issue. Maybe not. But doing nothing doesn't seem to be working very well.

Let me ask you this...........If you were a new to racing, or at least this class and you came to few races to scope out the class and the competition only to find out there were strong suspicions that certain cars were indeed running expensive NON-STOCK motors while running up front, how inclined would you be to jump into this class? We need to get rid of the perception that built motors are out there. Better yet....get rid of the built motors. The new guy needs to feel like even with his inexperience, with time, he and his equipment can be competitive. Without having to invest in an expensive built motor.

DAD..........this may be a total waste of time. I don't think so. But at least the effort will be made. And trust me.....there are quite a few issues that could be address to unify this class. This motor situation isn't the only thing that is going to be addressed. Many of us look forward to the challenge.

Again..........baby steps if need be.

What Mr. H said... :) also looking at standardized tech procedures, information sharing with other series.. Helping each other to help the sport grow. Look at attrition of drivers and why we don't have new drivers and do what we have to do to get guys on the track.

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Phil

I appreciate your efforts. Right now I am working on a role over type go no go gauge. Instead of that clumsy sissors deal this would just be a gauge set at stock bore + .010 inch overbore for each motor type. When inserted into the bore through the spark plug hole if it layed down all the way the bore would be overbored if not it would be a legal.

My point is it is not in the motor as much as most people would like to believe. The driver that can hook up the horsepower that is available is the one that will win the races. I would work on a quick tec deal that could be done quickly at the end of the race. At midnight no one wants to be standing around watching a guy stick his dirty fingers in their motors.

We have all watched hot shoes from out of town come in beat our butts take our money, maybe sell a few cars and leave.

If you have ever watched they head out to the main with either a sticker right rear or maybe one heat cycle in them. Why not offer them a nice 3 or 4 race old spec take off tire to race on, save them the money of buying a tire and level the playing field out for the club racer.

The best way to get these things to run 3 wide across the finish line is weight and tires.

One big problem I see in the near future is motor shape. To make them work better in race bikes they are putting the trans under the crank case with real tall pans. The problem is this will place the motor very high in the race car, and make oil pick up a real problem.

Also until the economy picks up, and they start importing and selling pocket rockets again the availability of good motors will go down and price of good motor with low miles are going to go up. A motor with several thousand mile is not a real good choice for a race car.

The cost of fuel and people spending all their money trying to stay alive has also had a killer affect on racing in general, just look around the pits. I don't see a lot of traveling mini sprint teams in the near future.

Work on making racing cheaper with a good Tire rule and sponsor. More competitive with weight.

I for one would like to see several classes in the winter where we could take our better racers and have them pass on some knowledge to the newer racer on driving- set up and gearing. That is how we can increase car count.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Do you EVER have anything POSITIVE to say?

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

??? My gas tank is half full??

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Phil I read your post once again. The only way one could imagine that one of these motors was a race motor or not would be looking at the air cleaner, granted we may have a few Engler injectors out there but nothing on the outside of our motor would denote a "Hank Scott" motor from a bone stock right off the bike motor. If your intentions are to make them look stock, then require stock air box only, then even the cheater motors would look stock.

We have a couple of brothers over here that run methanol with a stock motor and air box, and they do just fine against all the high dollar racers.

"Keep your eye on the ball"

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

LOL...silly question really, we all know the answer.

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

The people who are coming to this meeting have decades of promoting, racing and engine building experience. Just to get them to sit in the same room together to discuss lightning / mini sprints is priceless. I am very excited to hear from each and every one that attends. I am personally looking forward to learning from there experience and knowledge.

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

While I agree a "tire rule" is an option.....an option some groups have already adopted, I personally don't put too much faith in it. Not unless you put on an absolute "brick." Then what have you done? Slowed all the cars down. Maybe to the point a friggin' 600 is faster than our class. Sounds like a good formula to grow that 600 class though! Since our cars put out limited horsepower in relation to the RR and LR tread width (contact patches)......I don't see that tire that big of factor. Especially when the track is somewhat tacky. I think we all agree......tacky tracks, about anything works as long as it has air in it due to our limited HP. I'll admit that as the track slicks off possibly by the feature that tire makes a slight difference. But you said yourself......the racer that knows setups and driving skills will still prevail. So why force people to buy a more expensive tire? Yes.......I am talking about Hoosiers. I run Amercian racers for one simple reason..........cheaper. And they work as good as Hoosiers in my opinion. And yes I have run them both. It would be simpler to just have a durometer rule but then some organizations will lose out on their Hoosier "contribution." And that ain't good. Trust me....I have raced in a couple of other classes with spec tire rules. Honestly........didn't save me any money and it didn't change the outcome of any of the races. Fast guys are fast.....for a bunch of reasons.

Weight? Again........let's weight the hell out of them so that same 600 mentioned above is faster than our Lighting Sprints. Look around........on small quarters, they are about the same lap times now. Ooops.......there we go pushing racers to the 600 class again. Speed and economics is our selling point. We don't want to give away the speed and we need to control the economics as best as possible. But maybe I am looking at this all wrong. I figure there will be a bunch of people much smarter than me at this meeting to enlighten me. None of us are looking for an argument...............we are looking for solutions to grow this class.

Your no-go gauge system will require multiple gauges though.......right? I like the idea though. We have been using the scissor type unit this year. It works but there is definitely room for improvement. I may not be a motor man, but bore and stroke is about the least of my concerns but you have to start somewhere. Me..........it's all in the head and the compression. Mark is exploring the possibility of limited RPM's and a way to check it. The 600 guys are evidently doing that now in certain areas. That might be another starting point? Why have aftermarket rods then? Whatever is decided......it has to be "techable" with minimal effort.

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Iv'e been thinking for quite awhile now a 13000 across the board RPM limit would be a great way to even things up, help older motors run with the newer stuff, and help keep motors alive and COSTS DOWN.

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Phil

The Hp Is in the head. That is why we run old Kawasaki's.
The heads unlike Suzuki are ported right from the factory. The BMW came up with a shorter stroke bigger bore thus bigger valves and even more Horsepower and RPM> If and when it works the Japan makers will follow suit.

What I have noticed this year is low mile motors are hard to find and .ooo5>> five ten thoundsandth of an inch in crank main bearing clearance make a big difference in the life of one of these motors.

Good news for the motor building people bad news for the racer.

MC brings up the point of rev limiters, more cost to the racer but a good idea. We would want to advance the cam timing a little put longer ram tubes on to move the torque and Horsepower numbers down on RPM scale. Still More money and that would slow them down a little also but make them live. If you take the rev limiter off of a stock motor it will just keep on revving until the valves and piston collide and. Checking with the 600 people might be a good idea.

Weight>>>>We generally cross the scales at 1050 to 1075 pounds and on a good day we can run with anything or anybody out there. It isn't done with high dollar motors although them old Kaw's are bears right off the bike. We won the last race we ran and I bet we were also the heaviest car in the field. Weight matters in the start line to turn one drag race after that it is all driver and car. Slow these weight watchers down a little in the drag race and you will make better racing, and make the foot ball player feel more like getting a race car. Why would anyone buy a race car if they knew they would start off at a 100 pounds disadvantage from the hot shoe Jockeys out there. By cutting out the big guy and making him feel non competitive from the start you are eliminating over half of your perspective racers. We started out at 95 pounds and I felt it wasn't fair to a lot of the racers and I said so. Now we are 250+ and I still don't think it is fair. The only saving grace is that the same thing that makes one get heavy "age" is also the thing that turns one into a better driver "experience".

Tires>>>> I laughed at Ron when he bought up the idea. When it comes to hooking up a race car he and his sons are the best around. They are racers to be emulated and gives one something to strive for. They should win their share of races and nothing makes me feel better than to beat them once or twice.

The tire business is competitive, boy I love competition. When Hoosier sets the price American racer can beat it. They would like nothing better than to take all the mini sprint business away from Hoosier, I don't know if Hoosier feels the same way, but that small slice would be noticed. We have run American racers before and had no problems. There is not much mark up in tires but if we could get American racer on board and implement some of the ideas I brought up it could make racing cheaper. On some occasions promoters have used spec tires as a cash cow for themselves. Be forewarned racers usually don't put up with that Idea. I am sure other racers out there have other Ideas of their own.

Now is the time to use this old board. I don't intentionally try to P1ss people off, but I am pretty good at it. What I do try to do is get people thinking, and sometimes I might be a little too direct.

The only idea that is stupid is the one that you have and don't bring to the attention of others. Now is the time and place to do it.

I have had a love affair with mini sprint racing for a long time now. They are the most affordable, fastest form of open wheel racing out. I would sure never do anything knowingly to hurt or impede the growth of the sport.

You can also be sure if I can rattle your chain and get you thinking a little and talking>>>>> I WILL.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

I think in order to get Lightning Sprint / Upright Mini Sprint racing on the right track, the first thing we need to do is get fans and promotors interested in the product. These discussions always blame motors / rules as the cause of the downfall, when the fact is that even if everyone gets along and runs a common set of rules, it doesn't matter if no one knows what these cars are or wants them at their track. From the fan side of things, the class itself needs to be more uniform as far as a common name for the cars and a distinction from other forms of miniature open wheel machines. I think the ultimate key to success, beyond everything else, is to get these cars in front of a lot of people, at high-profile venues, during high-profile races. In other words, find a way to piggy-back USAC, WoO, etc. MMSA ran Sprint week at Bloomington two years straight, and I beleive Lightnings ran with the Outlaws in Illinois this year, but there needs to be more of this to generate the recognition. Find a way to run at Haubstadt, Gas City, Kokomo, Putnamville, Paducah, Tri-City, Belle Clair, etc. - and do it alongside a big-ticket show. It's good for drivers, sponsors, and fans. If you need proof of this concept, it's POWRi. The micros run everywhere the Midgets do, and the numbers of cars that show up is astounding. There's no reason they should be any more popular than 1000cc uprights. Don't discount small venues and fair races either, but you've got to make events out of them and get the locals excited and involved before cars even show up. Definitely discuss rules in the meeting, but by all means consider this subject as well.

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

I AGREE WITH THE WEIGHT RULE. Let's make it as FAIR as possible for all drivers. With all the brains and know it alls out there
I'm sure they could figure out a way to add a few lbs. to the cars. I brought this up to our club last year and You should have heard the WHINING AND CRYING
from the drivers 100 - 120 lbs soaking wet. Where o where could I possibly add weight to my car IT'S IMPOSSIBLE It was mentioned that weight would make no DIFFERENCE in the cars PERFORMANCE. Go tell that to the NASCAR guys!! They just could not believe any one could even think such a thing. The idea was RIDICULOUS and even considered DANGEROUS
to the drivers and even the fans. Imagine I was told with the extra weight the car would become a LETHAL WEAPON and that wouldn't be good for the CLUB
Can you believe this CRAP, worst of all these DRIVERS pretend that they BELIEVE this. Any way that is what we are faced with up here. I guess if I could run with LESS WEIGHT / UNFAIR ADVANTAGE
would seem like a good ides.
Later!!!!!!!!!

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

If you have a few cars in different classes but not enough to make one class you could race all the cars in one class using the weight rule to even up the score.

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Amen Kid.

Times are tuff right now. Racing like everything else feels the crunch. Four years ago I bought an 08 zx10r with 400 miles on it for I think $1900.00. Now a 2011 with 400 miles is $3000.00 and it doesn't even include the harness or ecu. There is a shortage of people that can buy and wreck a $14000.00 bike right now, but in the future I am sure these people will come back. Until then we got to tighten our belts and hold on. Many feel rules are the problem and a good rule book couldn't hurt, but sometimes I think we are just looking for something to blame or problems and shortfalls on other than the real cause.

I wasn't kidding about the weight thing, I bet that more than one half of the population of adult males are 200 pounds plus. Why would a 225 pound guy want to get up on a horse and run the Kentucky Derby against a bunch of 100 pound Jockeys. If you keep the weight rule the way it is. Lets say a guy goes out and buys a safe old race car that weighs in at 800 pounds and he is a big old boy who weigh 225 pounds he start out racing a with a 75 pound penalty. I can remember when it was 750 pounds car and driver in the 600 uprights and we had to add weight. With a 1000 pound minimum guys could convert old midgets over and still feel competitive.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

A 12" x 12" x 1" sheet of lead that would be the size of a 12" seat bottom weighs 59 pounds.
THEY CAN SIT ON IT DARN IT.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

This is very true, but how will they know how to bolt it down!!!!!!!

Put "T" bolts in it when you melt it together / mold it.

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

If you pour the molten lead into the bottom of the seat and place the lead weight between the butt and the seat it ain't going nowhere.
Lead being softer than aluminum might even feel like upholstering. One might experience a small problem if they try to exit the vehicle while upside down.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

I agree, not only for attracting fans, but drivers as well. We ran with the WoO at LaSalle last summer. LaSalle is a UMP Late Model track and I ran a LM there for a number of years. After the races quite a few LM regulars came down to my pit and after a lengthy Q & A, a few of them said that they would switch to a Lightning sprint if they were to run there as a weekly class. None of them had ever seen an upright lightning sprint before and were very impressed by the speed to $ ratio. They were most impressed with our motor and tire costs, which are almost insignificant compared to LMs. Of course, these might not be the type of teams you want to attract as they have some pretty big budgets...

And never call them mini sprints around these guys...LOL

That's why I'd put at least some sort of retainer on it. If not, the line of "get the lead out" might be takin to a new level....lol

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Copperhead...........Something you need to consider.........those 600's the POWERi guys took under their wing were a huge class BEFORE they took them as a support class. They have been around for years and years. Always had good car counts. Everywhere. Probably one of the reasons POWERi started running them. That was a no brainer. Already established car counts......all across the nation. And quess what.....they run basically under a standard set of rules and quidelines. Even the more open motors the POWERi cars run. Ask one of those guys what they have in their car/motor. I know....I own one. Lightning Sprints are cheaper. But 600's have an established car count already running at hundreds of facilities. The main thing.....they have basic accepted rules......Same as we are trying to do here. To get that exposure you are talking about takes car count. Too many tracks don't want to mess with a class with small car counts. We need cars. Period.....to make the next step. We need to appeal to more racers and expensive cars/motor costs are NOT going to do it. In this area, we have had LM, Modifieds and Sprint car guys talk the talk about switching to Lightning Sprints. Only a few actually do it. Good luck on that though because that is what we need to happen along with attracting Karting and 600 people.

FYI...........I have said my piece about the weight and by the way..........I weigh 215. Seems most of the groups have found a minimum weight they are comfortable with. It would just be nice to get one common weight for winged and one for non-winged. And not keep slowing the cars down doing it.

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

When Poweri put on their first indoor race at DuQuoin Magic Mini Mile. Jerry Tague's 1000cc AMSA Mini Sprints shared the race with the Poweri 600cc sidewinders as the only two classes on the race program. Jerry has done quite a few things to make the mini sprints a more popular class, and that was just one of them. We did such a good job at that race they replaced us with the midgets.

Why is it that with the sidewinders motor cost is not an object but with uprights it is. Those guys are like go karters you can sell them all kinds of snake oil go fast goodies for their motors and they fall all over themselves trying to be the first guy with the new trick goodie. We on the other hand worry our selves silly about some racer who by the definition of the term "RACER" is always looking for a way to go faster and will spend his kids lunch money to do it.

First we want a spec class "finger down throat" then we say while everything is on the table "WEIGHT" is not. We don't have enough cars to have a light and heavy class.

Weight over here in Indiana seems to be"the best kept speed secret" around. We got some big old boys that can put a hurt on any 941 pound car and driver. They didn't get big and fast overnight, they started out skinny and learned how to drive a race car and built up weight as they progressed. However most big old boys looking to get into racing ain't going to do too good starting out big in this class. They are going to think no need me getting into this sport I'll just go race the pumpkin patch class with the GoKarters at least I might have a chance there..

Sit back and study the problem. First you are wanting to slow down some racers (We think they are cheating), Then you come back and say certain things will make them too slow, (HOW DO YOU KNOW WHAT WILL MAKE THEM TOO SLOW IF YOU HAVE A CLOSED MIND?). and don't try it.

The hard RR tire will slow down the inexperienced hot shoe with a million dollar motor making all kinds of strange noises but that big old boy with driving experience and set up skills will just keep on winning races.

There are a few drivers over here THAT we need to just plain outlaw because they are just too dammed fast and good for the other drivers. Is that what you guys are trying to do also and just don't realize it. Twenty pound difference in weight is not going to keep us from racing with you guys if we could find the money to get there. We won't even have to check our weigh to be legal. We wouldn't even have a problem with our motor specs.

We may not have national rules. BUT event UMP rules get changed around a little for non sanctioned races. Groups will tend to follow the rules that make sense for them. The group with the best set of rules will get copied a lot.

Maybe all we need to do is copy the USAC rule book and change a few motor specs and make chain drive optional.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Geeez Dad.....where do I start? I was going to blow off responding to your last post but I can't do it. We are trying to have a constructive thread talking about a constructive meeting in an attempt to help grow our Lighting Sprint class in the Midwest. Like I said........it may be a total waste of time, but then again, it might be a shot in the arm to help push this class along. A few of us want to try. Shoot us at dawn if nothing good comes of this deal. OK?

The more I think about it...........I can see where those "pesky" nationally accepted rules have just about killed the stock 600 classes. As well as the IMCA classes here in the Midwest. Not to mention how they have drug Karting down to almost being non-existent. And don't get me going on how those stupid ASCS rules have all but killed 360 sprint cars.

If everyone thinks a tire rule is the answer, I have no problem with going along with it. I just think it ought to go by durometer rather than tire brand. Nothing against any brand.....just let people have choices that might save a few bucks in the long run. Season points have nothing to do with the bigger special races we hope due to travelers so why worry about a specific tire that is utilized because of the points fund contributions when it might contradict with the tire a racer might run in other areas? I think we all agree it's a pain to buy a RR or set of tires for one or two special races.

You seem to be really hung up on weight issues like some of us are hung up on motor issues. Seems there needs to be a common weight for winged and non-winged that we can all live with. To me......and I am not speaking for anyone but myself.....over a 1000 pounds for this class is absurd. An average car should weight between 730-760 pounds with a wing. If not, someone needs to go car shopping. According to most of the other classes that consider driver weight as part of the equation, seems they feel 180-190 pounds is the average driver. That said.......seems 910-950 would be a good average weight. Guess what? Seems most groups are already within that range. We just need to find a common weight. Weighting the car beyond that forces the "lighter guys" to add unsafe weight and raises the inertia the car generates during a wreck un-needlessly. Those "big guys" you are talking about........At some point, they won't even fit in this size car. I weight 215 so I am well aware of the restricted confines these cars present. My point..........rather than being concerned about "shoe horning" someone into these cars, concentrate on an average weight and not penalize the lighter guys by adding more and more weight. And again.......slowing the cars down. And yes..........I think most will agree........LIGHT IS FAST. I have yet to see anyone in racing deliberately adding un-needed weight to their car to go faster. But I don't live in Indiana where inertia and various laws of physics evidently have a completely different effect. Lighter cars accelerate and decelerate faster than heavier cars............At least everywhere except Indiana obviously.

I have been a smart a$$ about the weight deal long enough. I have stated my opinion too many times already. I just think there is a workable weight out there that we can all live with at some of these considered "Big events." No one is trying to circumvent any organization's existing rules by putting a gun to their head forcing a change. We're just exchanging ideas and seeing if we can create some commonality on various rules. But not just on motors and weights. Various things will be discussed.

Last thing, there have been quite a few people who have done a lot to promote Lighting Sprints. Jerry is no doubt at the forefront. I applaud his efforts all these years. I have to say though...........your last sentence in that first paragraph has me somewhat confused. ????

You have a nice day DAD. You definitely keep it interesting. Oh.......BTW.......I do have a very open mind about the upcoming meeting and what might come out of it.

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Since you gained 5 pounds between posts I guess I should assume you stopped by Mc Donalds the other day.

To be honest I'm not too hung up on weight or motors specs. When you go to Churchill Downs here in Louisville the smart money always bet the jockey. The same holds true for race cars.
You can worry all you want about either engine, weight or tire
but the same people will still always be winning.

What you want to do is give some sort of appearance of a level playing field. I do know rules generally when made complicated and specific tend to make racing much more expensive. We are in the middle of a 6 or seven page post in IOW right now about dopeing sprint car tires. Worrying about catching cheaters is only going to give you guys ulcers and the cheaters will have something more to think about and work toward circumventing.

National rules have helped sidewinders? Poweri has one set of rules and little tracks all over the country have their own rules based of of the nmma rules and what works for them.

What grew sidewinders? Starting drivers off at 8 years old, little tracks all over the country running nothing but modified midgets from 100cc up to 600cc, heck back east they even tried 1000cc sidewinders, just too hard to hook them up I guess . Right now with Dwarf cars, 1000cc SCCA cars both open wheel and inclosed wheel, Drag bikes and so on have caused these motors to sky rocket in price.

A bunch out west wanted to run aftermarket pistons and rods so they could keep their old high mileage motors going longer, not a bad idea if done in the spirit of fairness BUT??? How does one fix a crank that is worn .0005", new cranks go for about a grand and welded cranks about the same amount.

Weather you like it or not we are after all racing 1000cc MINI SPRINTS. We are the fastest and most economical form of dirt open wheel racing out there period. We race on larger tracks usually than sidewinders, on 3/8 mile and smaller tracks we are much much faster than the UMP open wheel cars. We are inherently a more dangerous sport than either ump modified or stock stock cars something about open wheels tend cause some concern among prospective racers.

Phil: It is a great deal of fun for me to get you guys writing and talking. You are however very set in your ways. I see your up coming meeting as a way for you guys to validate your ideas and promote them. People with open minds don't get up set about another persons views. Sit, listen, discuss, compromise. That would be "BABY STEPS".

Don't try to be 600cc sidewinders, Have you ever priced a race motor for one of them things (EBAY FTZ 636 Kaw $4495.00 with core)? We went to the Shoot out the first year they ran 1200cc cars. It was just like going to a go kart track and sitting in the pits. From 9am till midnight, there was always somebody holding the throttle wide open and trying to do a supper tune right there in the pits.

There are many more 600cc bikes imported into the US than 1000cc bikes. The average 1000cc rider is also much more experienced so they just don't wreck as much and put a lot more hard miles on the bike until it gets dismantled, sometimes by the owner to finance a new ride.

Unless like Wayne Davis we switch to a new motor maybe "ECOTEC" we just can't find enough good motors to grow a whole lot more.

Right now I'm trying to figure out how to get a 2012 zx10r under the hood without using a periscope.

On the last paragraph deal. I guess I should explain. Kenny Brown of PowerI had put in the little indoor track at DuQuoin for winter racing and I guess he wanted to see how Midget size cars would perform on it. We did really well and the Midgets followed.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

I applaud all positive ideas to try to put something like this together. As a promotor of a dirt track, guys looking outside the box really can help their situation when they come to the table with ideas that works for many, instead of working against each other. If clay county speedway can help support this I am all ears.

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Where is clay located?

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Flora Il..... More on this later.

I'm sure its been brought up before but why not just put a horsepower limit out there. Who cares what you do to motor if you are limited to say, 200hp. If in doubt, throw em' on the dyno is what one race series does and it works fairly well. Just a thought.

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Dyno's are kidna of expensive. I think AMA does this in their stock class motorcycles. With the AMA Dyno companys fight over the right to furnish the Dyno and usually the company that pays the most to AMA gets the job. Then all the race teams have to go out and buy one of the new Dynos to prep for the next race. That would put the job of winning back in the set up man and drivers hands however.

Did you see where I think "Smoke" had to be dynoed by NASCAR and a nut or something somehow got stuck to the bottom of the throttle peddle and it wouldn't go down all the way.;)

The old "IROC" idea made for some pretty good racing, and it worked out kinda of strange about the guys winning the races. How could a guy like Steve Kinser beat them NASCAR guys on their own race tracks, he sure did?:8::9:

You might work out a head swap program. After a racer won so many races they would be required to change heads with another racer in the group with the same type motor. Labor to be payed by the group?:11;

Seven pages 17000 hits and we still can't even resolve a simple tire rule at Bloomington.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

The old "IROC" idea made for some pretty good racing, and it worked out kinda of strange about the guys winning the races. How could a guy like Steve Kinser beat them NASCAR guys on their own race tracks, he sure did?

Sorry Dad, I didn't recall Kinser having much success in any form of a stock car racing. So I was compelled to do some fact checking. Steve Kinser raced 27 IROC events over a seven year span. He averaged 8.2 out of 12 possible starting positions in that time. He had 3 top fives, which included his ONE and only win at Talladega in 1994, he led 25 of the 38 laps. Sounds to me like he drew right car that day.

Additionally unimpressive, his NASCAR career consisted of 2 DNQ's in 1993 and 5 races in 1995 where he averaged a 35.2 place finish with 2 additional DNQ's.

Now everyone can go back to arguing about weight limits and tires ... just kidding. I commend everyone involved in trying to do what's best for the mini/lightning series to secure future success and growth. Good luck with the meeting, I will be looking forward to hearing the outcome.

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Talladega isn't that one of them little bull ring dirt tracks. That was in 1994, boy time flies. My point was they worked awfully hard to make those cars equal to one another and the best driver was suppose to win. I know that equal will never exist but they were on the cutting edge of equal at the time. Like going to the rental go-kart track, If you watch them several sessions you know the kart you want.

My point would be: People starting out in racing put to much concern in motor horsepower especially when the cars are racing on dirt. They may even spend large sums of money on motors and motor go fast trick parts like injectors air filters even rods and pistons when what they really want and need is a more tractable motor that they can control. If I was selling air boxes that would be my selling point.

The Kawasaki zx10r motors from 04 up are bears. We have run them since I think 04 or 05. The 04 motor had all kinds of horsepower but it came on so quick (cammy) on a slick track the driver just could not stay on top of it. In 08 they had redesigned a few things that made the motor much easier to drive thus even down a few HP from the 04 motor it was still faster in the race.

If one wanted to handicap these race cars to make them all equal, since they can't outlaw good drivers the way to do it would be with tires and or weight.

When a driver start out racing on dirt it feels kinda of cool to be buzzing the rear tires and backing the car into the turns. They think they are flying, when they get beat by another car they naturally think that that guy must be buzzing his tires even more then they are and backing his car into the turns really really hard.

This is the "SECRET" guys. That big old guy in what you think is a cheater motor car is keeping the car straight, getting a good bight on the dirt surface and accelerating no faster than the tire can keep up with the track conditions. I like to call it "Shuman Traction Control" named after Ron and Casey Shuman two of the very best throttle men out there.

Them big old boys overcome "inertia". The only time inertia should matter is the drag race on the first lap between the starter flag and number one turn. The good driver make it happen with that physics term known as "momentum">>>In these things you can't be starting and stopping them for every turn, that would take lots of horsepower and that stuff is expensive and you can't find much more of that stuff left in these motors.. The fastest guy in the center of the turn will also be the fastest guy at the end of the straight. Sounds easy doesn't it, the trick is doing it as fast or just a little faster than the other driver does, that is what we call staying on top of things.

That is how them big old boys over here in Indiana win races.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

The early generation of mini sprints around 1980 utilized a lot of snowmobile engines. Looking on ebay, there are countless engines available for under $2000......many under $1000. I race my sprint car weekly, but I wanted to build a car to run with the Storm Racing Series....and maybe catch a Montpeliar race, but was met with so much opposition when I mentioned using a Ski Doo, that I scrapped the idea for now.
Limiting choices, and innovators, choke racing. Look at how it has effected Indy Car.....and nascar even.
I do hope the rules meeting is productive. There are only so many of these cars nationwide, common ground needs to be found so everyone can race together when they have the opportunity.

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

There will always be "the motor to have", many of the new snowmobile use a motor similar to the 1000cc we race with today minus the tranny. The guys up in Montpelier are on to something, I would like to run the Southern Indiana franchise.

One thousand cc cars and midgets race real well together on smaller tracks. I think the 1400cc bike motors with their slightly more torque but slightly down on Horse Power would do real well racing with older midgets.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Just keep throwing stuff against the wall and see what sticks. Years ago when we raced 600cc cars at "Wonder Valley" a guy named Henery Hall took the track over. He being a TQ man at heart decided to allow only left rear tires for the rear wheels. I though that this was really stupid, We did not get along to well and we were soon banished to racing with the guys in Ohio and the Buckeye Mini Sprints.

Looking back on things maybe old Henery might not have been too far off base.

What makes the UMP modified so popular? I would probably have to think the same things that urkes Mini Sprinters setting in the warm up shut waiting for them to finish their main event one lap at a time. Yeh it's them darned skinny arss rear tires. They are governed by the tire and the ability of the driver to stay on top of things. Most of them don't and somebody spins out every lap. In the 90's a 78" was as large left as they made now it's 80 inches, but it's only has a 10" tread.

If the right rear was limited to 80 inches with a 10" tread we could give a midget one he1l of a race.

About 10 years ago some old guy up in Ohio had a special midget race, and he included 600cc mini sprints as being a midget. The midgets were limited to 10 inch tread and the 600cc cars were allowed to run the 12 inch tread. The winner of his race was Lynn Ambrose in a ERC 600 cc upright mini sprint.

By changing the right rear tire size to 80" x 10" we might be able to include midgets in the race format. It would probably make the older mini sprints and motors more competitive also. If you want more cars you got to make racing more competitive, I don't think speed will increase the car count, being faster than another class will not entice more people to race with us but if a racer thinks he has a chance with his 10 year old car that could increase the car count.

(Also TQ secret) they have a lot of race cars, because I guess the old cars never die. A lot of Tq drivers are racing cars that are older than they are, and I know a few cars that might even be older than their dads are.

When a guy walks through the pits and sees all the super trick $18,000,00 race cars setting there "to hell with the motors" he's going to say this stuff ain't for me. But when he see's a guy go out with a plain looking old sh1t box and beats them guys he says well maybe we could afford to go racing after all.

It is possible to race a dirt open wheel Midget size car and win without selling the farm, and 1000cc mini sprints is the class you can do it in. I probably have less money invested in my car and motor than a lot of open wheel modified racers have in their engine alone.

ASK YOURSELF>>>>>>>> WHAT DO WE HAVE TO DO TO MAKE THIS CLASS MORE COMPETITIVE BOTH FOR LOW BUDGET AND HIGH BUDGET RACERS ALIKE??? We are close already.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

I think most knowledgeable racers agree.........on small slick tracks, the motor is not as important compared to driver skills and setup. That was all well and good when most of our tracks were 1/6th miles and small quarters that slicked off big time. Don't know about other areas but in my area......tracks are much bigger that we are running on. Big quarters up to 3/8's. Plus the promoters are tending to keep them a little wetter simply to try to keep the dust down and OFF the spectators. Hmmmmm......guess what? That's when the "built" motors started becoming apparent. Racers realized they could definitely use more horsepower. Most of us are now racing on tracks that can suck the HP right out of your car. That extra 10-20 HP started to show up more and more. then the HP war started for some. Hard tire or not..........tacky or even just big tracks let the built motors breathe. Plus on the bigger and faster tracks, there is no short supply of drivers willing to "mat it" the entire race using all the available HP. Hence....... our dilemma started. No.......we can't outlaw the really good drivers, we probably can't dictate the track size we get to run on but we sure as hell can try to get the new guy and the seasoned veteran on a level playing field motor wise.

When I raced full midgets and they went to a tire rule..........all I saw was a lot of "fresh, green" rubber going on the right rear about everytime the front runners hit the track other than practice. Tire bills started to climb dramatically. Plus.....some had "figured" out a way to run tires that were "mis-stamped." The next problem and evidently one still on going.............tire soaking. Something that is extremely hard to tech at the track. The Go Kart guys are light years ahead of us on this one. I don't know what the answer is to the tire situation. That is why I am anxious to hear what others think from each of the Midwest groups. There is a solution....we just need to find it. And find one that doesn't cost the racer more in the long run.

I'm not fighting a weight rule. I just think you need to come up with one that doesn't take you to the point of diminishing returns. Like I said........seems most of the involved groups have arrived at a minimum weight they are comfortable with. One that has kept their area racing competitive. I don't see any of them over 1000# unless you are running a motor bigger than 1000cc. We just need to find that compromise all parties can live with. Right now.......they don't appear to be that far apart.

I see a dwarf car class formulating a rules package that is debating implementing a motor rule of no motor newer than 08. Not sure this is the answer due to availability but it shows others are having the same concerns. But as new motors become available, at whatever rate, the demand for the older motors will subside. Again.........probably not the answer but it is an interesting way to approach the issue of the high horsepowered newer motors. Before you start "flaming" on me.......I didn't say I support this approach.

Don't know about the UMP Modified you are referring to but I think they are similar to our A Mods back here. If they are like our class with the same "skinny" tire.........they are killing themselves off with run away motor prices. Seems the racers are out smarting that "skinny" tire with elaborate suspension systems and driveline tricks. The more HP they can make....the closer to the front they get. To Hell with that "skinny" tire. Now.......we have the B Mod class that has stricter motor rules. It is flourishing by comparison. Go figure?

We can debate and yack on and on. I just hope the smart people we have invited to this meeting can come up with a few basic rules that are track techable on this first attempt to unify this class. If we can come up with a rules package that can be used on "National" style events.........it's still a success. We have to start somewhere.