Attn: Mmsa mini sprints
 

Spiker racing products is looking to bring 3 cars to brownstown sat july 13th. As you all know my hyper car has a built engine with stock bore and stroke. It does however have high comp. Pistons. Would you let me run with your group this week since its non wing and the engine dosent really matter. I just dont want to drive 3 hours not to race. All the other cars are within your rules. Thanks rob winks

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I'd like you to bring it just so I can see what this hyper car looks like. But as far as rules, I'll let Bill make the final call on that.

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I mite be wrong but isn't the wheel base on these new hyper chassis 72" plus?

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71"

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I think that the decision should come from Bill May and the owners that support the series week in and week out (Mike Mensendiek/Beau Binder, the Ambroses, the Bradleys etc...) and battle for points and wins on a regular basis. But I will respectfully chime in my two cents.

I think that these series (MMSA, Waynesfield, Lightning Sprints in general) is at a really sensitive place with what is going on under the hoods of these cars. It wasn't too long ago that $8-10,000 would allow a competitor to race for wins, not top tens. And now it takes that under the hood alone. What is the point guys? We are driving ourselves right out of the market. This is a hobbyist/development class. We all have daily jobs. There is no good reason to spend this type of money on these cars. If you've got the budget, go sprint car racing. No wonder car counts are down. Lightning sprints used to be the best bang-for-the-buck in racing, not so much anymore. (Sorry for the engine rant and a thread hijack but I feel that it had to be said).

To get to your question Rob, and I certainly didn't mean to pick on you in particular in the above paragraph, I would welcome you down to Brownstown to have some fun, as that is why we are all headed that way. But in order to protect the interests of the MMSA and what they organizers/racers are trying to do I would think that maybe you could only qualify for the trophy- no $$. What I don't want to see is you take the place in the A-main of some kid that is just getting into the sport and is trying to get some laps and following the rules that are set-forward. If a deal can be worked out where we start 21 (20 "MMSA" legal cars) and pay the 20 MMSA legal cars then I'm all for it.

I think that it would open a can of worms to openly accept a 2013 MMSA illegal car just this once because of such and such scenario without provisions. Wing or non wing engines are very important in racing. Ask all of the USAC guys prepping for sprint week if they'd be willing to swap motors with a local car.

Anyway like I said I don't have the weight to carry much of this conversation as I don't get to as many races as I'd like to. But there is an idea.

Re: Attn: Mmsa mini sprints
 

I understand these engines are getting crazy. This class since the early 90's has always been about engines. I will say one thing it takes alot more than a engine to win. Id really like to show this car off and let everyone see what it can do. Ive never raced it non wing. My other choice is to race at Montpieller IN. Which is way closer to home.

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Re: Attn: Mmsa mini sprints
 

I fully agree with you there, the difference now is that the discrepancy is larger. But we could either continue to outspend each other, or figure out and agree upon a certain set of parameters to calm it down some- and then have organizations enforce it. Anyway I hope that we figure out a way to get you to Brownstown, as a good car count is the only way that we make the promoters happy (which is really what we need to focus on) and I'd like to check out that new Hyper as well.

Motors do matter wing or non wing.

Nothing against you Rob, but I think this is the worst idea ever. The reason our car counts are down is the very thing your pushing. The three cars you bring won't offset the 5-6 we lose because of you. Mushy rules and teching is why we have lost so many of our dedicated racers and potential new racers. Im not allowed to run Engler injection with the AMSA, you shouldn't be allowed to run your big engines with us.

This series was started with the idea that you didnt need 15k to have a chance at winning. We had. 20-25 cars every week then. Now the AMSA, and Mid American still allow these high dollar motors. Which undoubtedly killed this type of racing in the late 90s.



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Re: Attn: Mmsa mini sprints
 

What did ole Chris Economaki say "LET EM ALL RUN"!

That being said, why not Add about a 200 pound or so price tag for all that high tec "unobtanium" stuff some of these dumb Ba$atard$ are putting in their engines to run for that $400.00 prize and see if that make it more even and if that don't do it go for 50 pounds more.

Like the preacher said do as I "say" not as I "do". We can't even get a bone stock motor to last 30 laps, and these are the same motors we ran for 5 years without doing any thing to.

Let him find 200 pounds of lead plate for the bottom of his seat and let him run with you all. I sure Wish we could make it but. Just make it so it does not behoove one to put all that money in their engines, and you know what, they will just put that money in tires, shocks, chassis and now "SEATS" and beat the poor guy anyhow.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

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You would come out much better racing with the Midgets, both the purse, the fuel, and the exposure for your car. Mike builds midgets too, right.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

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Weight only goes so far, our good friend Colin Ambrose has the same car, injection, same engine as me. He's alot more on the scales. He's a better driver than I but I guarantee the weight has no effect on him being fast. So I'm not buying the weight argument. Unless its like 300-400 difference.
Even then if the tracks slick they may have an advantage.

Everyone wants these cars to be universally ruled. Easily done, stock motors, after market oil pans and fuel delivery allowed. Only.
No port no polish, no rods, pistons, cams, no removing anything. Alky is for safety, so you'll never get stock injection rules, and half the motors won't fit with a stock pan. These motors will last, and be competitive if you leave them alone.

Roger Solenburgers, and Bill Mays rules are just fine.

Quit playing with the oil system dad. !

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Re: Attn: Mmsa mini sprints
 

Yes Hyper is building new midgets also. They look just like the Lighting Sprint.

Re: Attn: Mmsa mini sprints
 

Andy,,,,,Sorry we band you’re Engler injection system. We (Mid-America Lightning Sprints) took a common since approach to our rules. Did not and don’t see the need for a $3500 plus injection system to run up front. Andy, and some others don’t feel there is a place for aftermarket STEEL rods in our class. I disagree,, Please tell me what did Joe Gibbs racing get busted for this year in NASCAR. It was heavier rods,,,RIGHT????,,,,, wait,,,,,,,, nope it was lighter rods. You won’t find any aftermarket rods that are lighter then stock Rods! There is NO performance gain for heavier rotating parts. But there is a longevity factor. And that is what MALS is after. We don’t want to see anyone blow up a motor. PLUS,, wait for it,,,,,,,,,,,,,, you DON’T have to run aftermarket rods! Now the aftermarket pistons?? We are rethinking that part. We are stock bore and stroke, no aftermarket cams, no porting, no milling,of heads,,,,, STOCK heads as they come off the bike, Un-like MMSA who allows porting and milling. By the way just how are you teching deck height???? no aftermarket ECU, no in car adjustments of any kind except the wing slider, no zero lose charging systems, NO BMW, no 2011 or newer ZX-10r no 2012 or newer R-1 or GSXR. This year we are still allowing the older 1205 oil cooled motors and ZX-12. Those will be dropped for next year. If anyone want to look at our rules please go to your web site and click the rules tab, then you can tell me if we are trying to help this class with common since rules or hurting it as Andy would like for you to believe. http://midamericalightningsprints.blogspot.com/

I guess we must be on peoples radar since we are being thrown under the bus our first year! Thanks ANDY

Andy what was tech on your car for winning last weekend?

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Didn't mean to hurt your feelings guy. Your common sense approach is flawed. You have built rules around what you have. I mean you can call me out personally all you want. Anyone here can, but there's no common sense in allowing after market rods and high compression pistons. If you didn't have the pistons you wouldn't need the rods, If you didn't mill the head you wouldn't need the rods. Injection is a whole different argument. The idea that they weigh more than stock 99% of the time is false. If you bought rods that are heavier than stock you wasted $1200.

And you dump on us for running non wing?

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Re: Attn: Mmsa mini sprints
 

Not trying to throw gas on this fire but why is it again you won't allow newer engines? Is it because there stock output might be better than your built output. There is hardly if any advantage to running a new gen motor. Ask Dorset, ask hench, ask Rosson, ask Larry foz. These engines are unproven and many times worse than what we have already figured out. That new r1 is a turd, the new gsxr likes to share its self all over the track. You guys rules are basically made up of being scared of the unknown. Like Engler you have seen one. You based your judgment off that. What does your injection cost, can you take it to another generation of engine .. Wait you don't allow newer engines... Can you take it to a different brand engine.? Off topic I know...
Where did you the price for a Engler?

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Re: Attn: Mmsa mini sprints
 

:47:Jeez, he just asked if he could come run one non-wing race...

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Sorry Rob, didnt mean to hijack your request, Id love to see the hyper, but I wanna see it under the same standards we are held too. Inwanna see what the car can do, not what the engine can do . He sure can, he just has to put one of his stock engines in.

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Re: Attn: Mmsa mini sprints
 

We...... myself and Phil Heavelow have put a lot of time effort and money into MALS helping lightning sprint growth. And quite frankly for you to throw MALS under the bus as you are trying to do makes NO sense to me???

Your response shows me you truly have not read our rules! You just want to throw bombs! So let me post for you what is causing you some much grief. So when you pick it apart you at least know what you are talking about.

Do you see anything about high compression pistons being allowed? Do you see anything about milling heads being allowed. All motors that have won an MALS races are STOCK from head to the crank. And for your knowledge, MALS has gone to the trouble of Hiring an AMA official to do our tech. And we TECH!!! Every motor that has been top three has been tech for Fuel, Compression, Stroke and Bore. So tell me again... what was teched on your car after you won last weekend??

We did our research over the winter and put together a fare rules package. Sorry it does not agree with your vision of lightning sprints.

Andy,,, what are you trying to accomplish ??? Are you trying to insure that no one comes to run with MALS just because you can't run your Engler here?? Do you care about growing this sport?? Or do you want to tear it down?

Mid-America Lightning Sprints has the sport of Lightning Sprints growth as our goal and our vocus. Try and remember that when your trying to criticise something you have not read or understand!

You added more, new motors? Main reason is there are two few of them the cost and yes the H.P. advantage. The 2011 ZX-10r and the BMW are on the same level and are game changers. New 2012 R-1 and GSXR not sure about. The new ZX-10 and BMW put our 16 HP more then older motors.

Built motors,,, CLUELESS!!!

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:44::44:

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You have high comp pistons. Atleast you told me you did.? I thought you won?

I'm just retaliating to your remarks. Just because I mention you allow aftermarket parts doesn't give you the right to berate me.

You allow built engines. Fact

When you ban engines it makes the other cost more. That's common sense.


Btw haven't ran Engler all year.
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Re: Attn: Mmsa mini sprints
 

just go run with them tell them its all stock
just like you and farney did at Eldora last year
they wont know the difference you pulled it
off last year if they truly teched your motor

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WOW.... Called you on the phone to put a stop to this and this is how you man up by throwing more bombs!!! Just lost ANY respect I had for you. My motor is STOCK. I never told you anything remotely close. Matter of fact it just so happens that I tried to melt my motor down last weekend by running it out of water. So I just happen to have the head off. A pictures is worth a thousands words!!! If you like I can get today news paper and hold next to it so you know its from today.

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I posted that before you called. Still like to talk to you, maybe face to face would be better?

Connecting flights right now, Mark.
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Re: Attn: Mmsa mini sprints
 

thanks guys for the imput. I think its best to just leave the new Hyper hot rod at home. This post has really brought up a very good points that we need to address for the 2014season for all series. Lets all come together on a set of engine rules form east coast to west coast. This would let any car race anywhere at anytime without question. To be honest with you I only have my engine just to keep up. Im not the one who pushed the bar on engines. I like to win and if building a motor to help me I'm going to do it. By the way LUCK4 my Eldora win last year was with the same engine that I raced all year and it did pass tech. If you would leave the hood on and put your laptop in the truck you may have not blown so many engines.

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Bottom line here is this. If each sanctioning body has different rules, then it becomes difficult for people to travel and run with other sanctioning bodies. Also, if folks are running high $$$ engines, then that will kill the class. Look at the midgets etc.... Out here we run stock motors, and we have had 6 races and 5 different winners. And only one blown engine. I have a friend here, with an 04 GSXR, bone stock, won appx. 20+ features and has 80+ race nights on the motor and still going strong. I have 30 nights on my stock R1, and still going strong. If our class ends up needing $10K motors to run, then I too will switch to another class. Cannot afford that. You guys out in the midwest , could have huge car counts, if ALL the clubs had the same rules. Too bad that is not likley to happen. Just my 2 cents....from Colorado.

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And , out here in Colorado , we have 3 lightning sprint clubs, (appx 50 cars total)all with the same motor rules, and ALL three have people running in each others clubs. In those three clubs, appx 18 races run this year with 14 different winners . Parity and low costs + growing classes.

That will never happen here....too much drama.

Waynesfield pretty much runs every week so there is no incentive to team up with other organizations or tracks to grow this class of racing.

The AMSA really doesn't exist anymore other than running the show at Waynesfield.....so that being said, they also have no incentive to work with other tracks/organizations to grow the 1000cc class.

Truth be told, this is no longer a cheap level of racing to be involved in if you want to compete week in and week out to win. We had some real good HUD motors, all legal with stock parts, stock injection, stock airbox, etc and while we were fast there were guys blowing right by us.....at least until their motors blew up.

It's a shame a few tracks can't get together and alternate weeks to run. You could have track championships and a series champion, now that would be fun.

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Re: Attn: Mmsa mini sprints
 

Oh, we have drama here as well, but we kinda all get along...but we have to keep the costs down, or we lose our guys to dwarfs, etc......

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I'm all for a new Ohio and Indiana Lighting Sprint club with 100% stock engine rule. I will help out anyone if they would like to get something going. I get tired running Waynesfield every week. Anyone that has knows me can tell you I'm not a rich guy with big pockets. We can make a change if enough people jump on board and quit complaining. Id be more than happy to sell my new HUD engine and have him build a stock one.

A couple of years ago I would have lead that charge.....just don't see it happening until the powers that be around here realize they are pricing the budget racer out of the sport. It's been a fun five years but we've decided to move on. I hope at some point logic wins out over emotion in the 1000cc world of racing, but I don't see it happening anytime soon.

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Needs to be a national sanction. It would be advantageous for all. Everything has been tried and we know what works and don't . I disagree with some of the series rules, MALS has added many races to the Minisprint schedule and Im glad they are doing that, I didn't mean to try to talk down there series or talk Mark down. However if stock is stock there wouldn't be any issues. Stock with Carrillo rods is not stock. I was not a angry or retaliating for not being able to run there, we have other cars that can be run there however don't believe everything you here about the injection systems, if you look at long term what we run is cheaper in the end. Sorry mark tried to call you back to talk to you again but I don't like how that conversation was left. I mis understood what you said and wouldn't mind if you came to run with us but you will have to leave your rods at home. Maybe we will see you soon.

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Re: Attn: Mmsa mini sprints
 

Yep! them are stock pistons Mark. Generally when we run em dry we pull #4 connecting rod apart right in the middle and spit the I beam out in the belly pan. Also looks like #2 piston has been meeting up with the intake valve a little. Might want to check your spring retainers. Kaws also like break them things ever so often and when they do you are looking for another motor.

This engine deal really gets old, either hearing people complain about getting beat by super motors or us blowing them up every 30 laps.

These things I know for sure.

1. You can't rule out people from spending more on their race car than other people can. Hell some guys even haul them around in a Quarter million dollar hauler.

2. You can't keep people from blaming their lack of success on the fact that the other people are cheating. It just couldn't be because they missed the set up our made a few mistakes in their race, it just has to be the other guy's fault.

3. Give me a solid motor, a new right rear tire an advanced chassis design, set it up properly and put a good driver behind the wheel and we will run off and hide from those expensive motors.

4. Yes Andy****** you can do it with "weight". The good driver will rise to the top, we have even done it a few times ourselves. If we are 3 mph faster in the center of the turn we will be 6 mph faster at the end of the straight. We have been known to scare a few people in the center of the turn.

5. Don't make those high dollar motors illegal just make it where a person can't justify racing one because they would have to carry too much weight.

6. All the groups are still way off in their race weight for our cars and drivers. Guys like Collin and Doug are 100 pounds off to start with. Because of their driving ability they can run up front, however the new racer just starting out does not stand a snow ball's chance of getting up front.

What really gall me is watching the line of cars before the race standing in line at the scales to add that last little bit of extra of weight to be legal. When we come to the scales they just wave us through knowing we have that 125 pound margin of safety.

If you win the feature one week the next week you should be made to start on the tale. If you win that race you should get a $100.00 bonus lots of praise and also have your minimum weight raised 25 pounds.

Big motors don't kill racing series but one guy winning all the races sure will.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

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I know a tec guy that will be available.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

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When they get gasoline down to $2.00 a gallon and the purse up to $2000,00 to win we will travel. As long as we are a support class there is not too much incentive to travel. The rules are getting closser all the time, but why spend $500.00 in gasoline to race for a support purse.;):5:

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

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We could call it "Hosier-Buckeye Division III winged and wingless midgets" or "H-BDIIIW&WM" for short. Kinda of got a wing to it doesn't it.:D:D But then the fight about the placement of Hosier and Buckeye would start up.

Why would someone want Hud to build them a "stock" motor, doesn't that take the stock out of stock. Just get him to mix you up some of that old "Kikipoo Joy Juice", that should be sufficient.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

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Hmmmm............Just read this this morning. Mr. Bradley, I don't know you and you sure as hell don't know me. I am the Phil Heavelow that Mark referred to. I do take offense to your attacks on MALS. We have printed rules. Rules we enforce while other groups "talk" about enforcement but actually do nothing. How many other groups out there actually tech the first three cars? Not talk about it......actually do it. With an unbiased professional? We do. In my day, I have traveled to various races and have yet to actually see any tech done. Again..........MALS does. We did all this to try to keep the costs down and gain credibility. We are trying to support and help grow this class. But then someone like you gets on the internet and starts making UNTRUE statements about something you know nothing about. I am sorry your feelings got hurt about your "Engler" system. It was about cost.....not performance it was outlawed. Deal with it. Same as Mark said about certain motors.........availability and costs mainly. That extra "claimed" 16 hp doesn't phase me in the slightest.....it's the availability and cost factors that concerned me. Let's face it......60-70% of the racers out there wouldn't know what to do with that extra HP.

MALS does run Stock motors. We presently allow non performance enhancing rods. For motor longevity. Me.....My equipment (ZX-10r) is absolutely box stock with the exception of a Rosson alky system and oil pan for easier motor placement. Motor right out of the bike. So "can" that statement about MALS having "built motors." You obviously have no idea what you are talking about. And yes...........my motor has been teched MULTIPLE times.

Mark and I saw this class as self destructing. Everyone sees it. We stepped up to the plate and decided over the winter to do what we could to try to save the class. Our sister group in this area, MLS was beginning to experience these "built motors" you are referring to. Hence MALS was formed. We have tried increasing the purse. We have implemented basically stock motor rules. We tried to make it where racers can come run with us and know exactly what they can expect and be confident they are on a level playing field. We have not deviated from our goal. Stock motors. No increased compression, no slightly longer rods, no bore jobs, no lightened cranks, no after market cams.............friggin' stock!! Please try to remember that when you refer to MALS.

Mark and I have pondered the possibility of interested parties from each group meeting after the season is over to possibly try to organize a National Organization or some sort of National Rules. If nothing else.......to simply standardize the rules. Years ago when "Minisprints" were taking off.....around 1987-88......We had a National set of rules. I know....I was there and part of it. We need it again.

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Not just mals, but all groups, how are you guys going tec for aftermarket rods, light weight cranks, ti valves? stock bore stroke And port work is all you can check for unless you tear motor down.

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Phil you guys are making more of this than it is, you can get all bent out of shape all you want , the comment made was " Now the AMSA, and Mid American still allow these high dollar motors"
100% Factual Statement.

No one said you have a cheating motor or mark for that fact, your rules allow that stuff. That's all I was saying. Had nothing to do with Engler. Zero.

YOU ALLOW THOSE MOTORS.

These non performance enhancing rods, which I'm sure the folks at corrilo will love that new marketing strategy still cost big $. Having someone install these rods or the aftermarket pistons that Mark and I talked about are expensive. If you don't mind me asking who makes a piston that is the same weight and performance as stock?

Rods are $1050
Labor. $800

$1900 more than stock.. So on a gsxr buying the engine and doing the mod your on 4k.


The conversation I had with Mark in April I explained my position on all of this and explained why I would not be attending the spring race that he asked us to attend.

These motors are almost self limiting, if you can't change rods and pistons, yea you can mill the head, degree cams but how many laps with that last on stock rods, not very long.

Sorry you took that the wrong way, and sorry you guys put your own series in the spotlight. if you want to grow the sport your gonna have to get rid of that stuff, as a racer we are the customer you are the salesman.

Salesman dont lecture customers on ethics and give them sh$t for stating the truth.
Feel free to call ill be here all day.
812-345-3946

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Here's the problem. Most series have started to go in the right direction getting rid of the super big 10k motors. But what you didnt stop is people opening the cases up doing your little twerks here and there. The engine life on these motors go down severley when you crack that case open. Ask most guys that blow there engines if its ever been open with there hands in it. I know alot about american motors but i dont know jack **** about these motorcycle motors so i leave it at that and dont touch them. We run stock motor rules no aftermarket anything and I think we have the fewest engine failures in the country as well. Ive been running a junk yard turd motor for a season and a half i believe 33 races on it. Its more then paid for itself in that time. It will also compete with the bigger motors out there. Everyone thinks you have to have the biggest and baddest motor under the hood to run with the next guy when you should really be spending your money else where. Sure a track like eldora you have to have a big motor but i also dont think these cars should run there for the fact you never let off. Anyways the rules are simple leave the motors completely stock they will run trust me. Just do the right maintenance and your fine. Allow whatever injection and air box they want to run and leave the weights the same i have yet to see weight affect a fast car.

EXACTLY!!!!! Everything in internally left oem! I see everyone's point, but if u allow one thing this year what's it gonna be next year?!? It's racing PEOPLE!!! If your worried about how long your motor will last your in the wrong sport. If you can't afford to buy a stock motor and leave it stock ( other than injection) you need to buy a seat cushion and sit in the stands. I don't even own a car yet but I'm wanting to get one. The only problem I see is all the series need to get together and get 1 set of rules so a guy can travel if he wants to and not have to change a bunch of stuff jus because another series doesn't allow something or does allow more than you have!!! JMO

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