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Indy 500: F1 - McLaren's Fernando Alonso to run the Indy 500
Saw this earlier this morning. Didn't know if anyone saw this and thought I'd share this bit of news with the rest of the Indy 500 fans on the IOW forum. Seen on racer.com via Robin Miller on Facebook this morning.
Seems McLaren will have a car entered for the 2017 Indy 500 with help from Andretti Autosport with driver and 2x Formula One World Champion Fernando Alonso and skip the F1 race at Monaco right in the middle of the F1 season. Link to Article - http://www.racer.com/indycar/item/13...-indy-500-deal |
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Glad to hear this! Fernando is one of my F1 favorites; hope he can get another title!
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Wow, that is big news.
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Yeah that pretty cool, so now lets see someone put Brady Bacon or Chris Windom in an IndyCar!
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By far, the best thing that has happened for the 500 since Tony George destroyed it two decades ago. Shades of Emmo and Nigel are coming back to bring it back from the depths.:6:
GREAT NEWS ! |
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Are you saying that the IRL destroyed Indy car racing, Stevensville Mike?
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And that is with a capital Y, capital E, and capital P. |
Well you're wrong. Pretty sure not even the great Tony Stewart would have had a chance at the speedway without it. CART ruined indy car. I'll take any fallout from changes that allowed, Jack Hewitt, Steve Kinser, Billy Boat and even Jeff Ward to compete at the speedway. Even if indy car's had vanished from the planet, I'll accept it as sacrifice for the opportunity for real race drivers to get a chance at the greatest race of all, just like it was intended when greats like Foyt, Unser, Rutherford, Jones, Sneva, and more ran there. Don't get me wrong, I'm not the guy that says let's keep it all American, it's always been international. But the best indy car driver's of all time have come from American open wheel racing, and cart discounted them as no more than street stock racers.
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Perhaps would be a bigger story if Larson or Kyle Busch were in a seat in May.
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The way to bring in the Americans would be to put he dirt cars back in the Championship for points. When we raced in the 60's and 70's that was super. 16 ovals, 5 dirt races and 5 road races. And the Non USA drivers went home after the 500. Then Penske got the dirt cars thrown out because he did not own a dirt car. And after that he won alot more races. Don't blame Tony for this. Tony did a hellva job. Sometimes sisters can give you guidelines, to keep peace. If you knew all the cronies he had to fight to save Indy car racing. You wouldn't be thinking like that. Just get the dirt cars back in.
Lynn |
Re: Indy 500: F1 - McLaren's Fernando Alonso to run the Indy
1970 the last year the Dirt Champ cars where part of the National Champion Schedule.
Date Race Track Miles Type Winner 3/28/70 Jimmy Bryan 150 Phoenix 150 PO Al Unser 4/4/70 Golden Gate 150 Sears Point 151.38 RC Dan Gurney 4/26/70 Trenton 200 Trenton 201 PO Lloyd Ruby 5/30/70 International 500 Mile Sweepstakes Indianapolis 500 PO Al Unser 6/7/70 Rex Mays Classic Milwaukee 150 PO Joe Leonard 6/14/70 Langhorne 150 Langhorne 150 PO Bobby Unser 6/28/70 Rocky Mountain 150 Castle Rock 151.62 RC Mario Andretti 7/4/70 Michigan Twin 200s MIS 200 PO Gary Bettenhausen 7/26/70 Indy 150 IRP 150 RC Al Unser 8/22/70 Tony Bettenhausen 100 Springfield 100 DO Al Unser 8/23/70 Tony Bettenhausen 200 Milwaukee 200 PO Al Unser 9/6/70 California 500 Ontario 500 PO Jim McElreath 9/7/70 Ted Horn Memorial DuQuoin 100 DO Al Unser 9/12/70 Hoosier Hundred ISF 100 DO Al Unser 9/19/70 Sedalia 100 Sedalia 100 DO Al Unser 10/3/70 Trenton 300 Trenton 264 PO Al Unser 10/4/70 Golden State 100 Sacramento 100 DO Al Unser 11/21/70 Bobby Ball 150 Phoenix 150 PO Swede Savage Over 100 different drivers attempted to qualify for a race that season. |
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I will reiterate a point that was made previously.
Right or wrong, for better or for worse, Tony George made it possible for me, and many, many others I suspect, to have the privilege and honor to watch Billy Boat, Steve Kinser, Donnie Beechler, Jack Hewitt and Jimmy Kite race in the Indy 500.:27: None of us have any way of knowing what would have happened if Tony George had not done what he did but it's a good bet that we wouldn't have had the pleasure of seeing the aforementioned drivers compete in the Indy 500. Given NASCAR's exploding popularity during that period of history it's a safe assumption that interest in Indy Car racing was going to tank to some significant extent despite the split. As far as this F1 guy racing at Indy, good for him and it's probably in some small way good for the 500. You want to see some real excitement? Just announce that Rico Abreu, Christopher Bell and Kyle Larson have rides for the Indy 500. Now that would heighten interest a whole bunch. |
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I would love to see the rules tweaked for the 500..or every oval, to allow any IRL car from the last 3-4 rule packages to run with any naturally aspirated pushrod v-8 or DOHC 166ci turbo 4cylinder.
Every time a new spec car comes out 40-60 chassis become obsolete and only good for showcar purposes....and a couple years later you actually see classified ads on racingjunk for turnkey or roller indycars in the 40-100K range. Surely Abreu Vineyards could hustle up enough help to buy a dallara showcar from some team for the same price one of their new sprintcar motors costs. Surely TRD could quickly come up with a different cam and the proper turbo to convert a couple of Kunz chilibowl winning motors to a suitable 500 package. Or the Hoffman team could find somebody willing to grab a roller and combine it with a motor out of the 69 sprintcar rotation. I have no doubt there are a few businessmen in Indiana, IL, MO or CA that would be more than willing to drop 5 figures on a car to get to see Ballou, T-Mez, Shurenburg or DD try to work their way up from the 10th row at Indy. I would never expect any kind of car grandfathering rule package to allow the old stuff to be equal to the current car and capable of winning...but I am absolutely sure there are 4-10 of our guys who could put a Don Ott 410 in somebody's old showcar and make the show ahead of 4-10 of the ride buyers nobodies ever heard of in a current teams 4th car. Also pretty sure they have enough savvy and racecraft to finish ahead of plenty other ride buyers that do qualify. |
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I'd like to see Don Ott's special "WoO Killer" motor he built for Fred Rahmer in an Indy car. :6:
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all the dreamers, when indy car racing is a nightmare.
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I think it's great that he is coming to run the 500, I wish more of them would. It was great when Mansell came over, great when Juan Pablo came over and I hope we get more world driving F1 driver's in the future. Now, there's plenty of blame to go around for the deterioration of the popularity of indy car's. They don't seem to want to help themselves at times. For example, if they can't see the value of the buzz that Bryan and his team of people brought to us grassroots fans, then they are surely short sighted. Now I always pay attention to the greatest spectacle in racing, but I have to believe that BC's participation had many more of our types watching and cheering and paying attention to the whole deal. I can only hope that they are working behind the scenes to bring talented racers like Bryan to race to make sure we keep watching!
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[QUOTE=djbamber;471348]He has a better chance of winning the 500, than F1 at Monaco, never mind any other circuit in F1 with McLaren/Honda right now.[/QUOT
You are right because it would seem that passing in F1 is not well liked. |
Re: Indy 500: F1 - McLaren's Fernando Alonso to run the Indy
I know this is not going to be popular, especially with this being my first post. However, as a historian, I can't allow some of this to slide as "fact".
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You might want to first start with Dan Gurney's white paper and go from there as to the reasons for the formation of CART. It will sound very familiar....oh, because it's sort of similar situation now with lack of promotion, a legacy of piss poor leadership(which is finally getting it's act together), lack of sponsorship, poor payouts, and a lack of attention outside the Holy 500. 3. Quote:
BTW, the nail in the coffin for the dirt slayer was set before CART or Penske were ever involved. As soon as the first rear engine car unloaded that nail was being driven and the lack of drivers preparing themselves for that eventuality drove the nail even further. Rear engines, wings, reintroduction of road courses, and of the course the reintroduction of foreign talent after Europe started to dig itself out of two wars and a depression......as I still say, if a Lawerenceburg, Bloomington, or Terre Haute slayer wants to get in on the action then they need to get themselves off the dirt and into either the European ladder or Mazda Road to Indy. 4. Quote:
Drivers like Alonso, Mansell, Clark, etc are just as much real racers as the ones you cite. They also have something that more than a few that have been cited in this thread never will possess or didn't possess at the time, national and worldwide recognition. As skilled as they are Boat, Ward, Kite, and Hewitt aren't going to bring attention. Drivers like Unser, Foyt, Andretti, Mansell, Clark, Jackie Stewart, etc. will and it's simple. They have proven themselves at the top level of motorsports and have national and worldwide attention. Those are the drivers, like it or not, people pay to show up to see. Go to some online forums and message boards and see how big of a deal Alonso running the 500 is. Outside Trackforum and here, Clauson wasn't garnering that type of attention. There is a reason that the 500 is part of the Triple Crown of auto racing with Monaco and Le Mans. That experiment of 1996 that you so revere damned near destroyed it. |
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Like I've pointed out above, you could have still played in the sandbox had the second split never happened. The rules for the race would probably still be fairly open rather than stuck to a one chassis and two engines limited to how many they will support. Now, you wouldn't have your Silver Crown cars because frankly they are too dangerous for that place and I don't think a single soul outside a couple of online forums would show up to watch that being that you are basically going backwards in innovation....which is another tenant of that race that sadly got lost in the second split...which of course is why your cars have looked, as you so derisively put it, like F1 lite for over 50 years now. The cars look the way they do because that was the progression in tech as they found faster ways around that track. Speed is the name of the game in that race and series and a modified Silver Crown car isn't going to cut it. The rear engine was faster than that heavy front engine roadster, the wings made it faster, the turbo added boast, on and on. Speaking of. You know that stock block Penske Mercedes-Ilmor that everyone accuses of being a cheater when in fact it was well within the USAC rules? One of the reasons that Tony used as a need to "save open wheel from itself"? They were going to make that a customer engine after that race. Yep, sure were....that was until Tony and USAC decided to save everyone. Now you have to hope and pray you can obtain a lease from Honda or Chevy. |
I will not dispute all your claims but specifically the Penske/Dirt car response. Penske came from a road racing background with little loyalty or acumen for dirt racing. He was more than chagrined when Gary B. got upside down in turn 1 while qualifying Hulman Classic. Penske doing commentary for a sprint car race? My problem is the hypocrisy of Penske and other car owners who said it was too expensive to have 2 different style cars and then went out and invested in the Formula 5000 series and other road racing series.
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BANNED!!!!!!!!!! Can't have somebody look good on the high banks of Salem while actually learning the way to drive the rear engine stuff at the same time. |
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A couple of things that really can't be disputed is that Roger Penske, and those of his ilk, were at least partially responsible for the dirt races being eliminated from the Championship Trail. Another thing that cannot be disputed is that had Penske been so inclined he could have been just as successful running the dirt tracks as he has been in everything else he has endeavored. If I were to venture a guess I would say Roger felt the dirt racing was somewhat below his lofty ambitions. If you are to persuade some of us that the aforementioned dirt drivers would have had a greater opportunity to have been part of the starting grid for the Indy 500 if CART had stayed in a position of power you'll need to come up with some solid facts that bear that out. I don't see how that is possible but I've been wrong before. Just someone saying so on a message board doesn't necessarily make it the truth. Is there a remote chance that you are a former CART employee? :3: |
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For the others on this thread, on the first page I opened it up to the gallery that I felt the IRL destroyed the 500. I still do, and always will stick to my guns on that. One has told me I am wrong. No. I am not wrong. I have a different opinion than you. I can be told all day long I am wrong, but it goes in one ear and out the other. In my mind, I am right. And please don't get me started on 25/8 and/or Gene Simmons. We'll leave that for another day. However, this IRL opinion of mine has somewhat hijacked the thread, that being Fernando Alonso entering the Indianapolis 500. I apologize for that. Brickyard, you speak very well and represent all on the CART/Champ Car side of the split. Now, as for the topic at hand, it was mentioned that guys like Rico, Kyle Larson, Christopher Bell, and even one of the Busch brothers would be great for the 500. To us, yes it would. But thinking on a GLOBAL basis (i.e. outside and beyond of us dirt track junkies), Alonso coming here to race makes everything else very small. This is world racing news. Do you realize with him in the race, the networks pretty much just picked up the entire country of Spain, where Alonso is a national hero? That's like..... 47 million people. Now, if only HALF of them have TVs, 23.5 million more viewers? Not to mention the attention that IndyCar will get by having an F1 driver, a two-time world champion by the way, spend his time here than there? This isn't a back-of-the-pack career F1 jobber we are talking about. If given the right tools, and not a current McLaren Honda, this guy would still be knocking them off one after another. You do not become a two time world champion without a God-given talent. And furthermore, throughout the Monaco GP broadcast earlier in that day, the reminder that Alonso will be in the 500 will be thrown out on the table in every language, multiple times, and in every corner of the motorsports world. Once the post race interviews are done, the fans will go straight from Monaco to Indy. Rico, Bell, Larson.... if they get there, no one across the globe, unfortunately, is going to write how these guys entered the 500 - except for us guys and girls here. No... this is, by far, the biggest news in motorsports right now. And it is nothing but good news. Keep swinging away, Brickyard. Keep swinging away. :6: |
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Best of luck to Fernando, he's a gifted driver and I have no issue with him competing or even winning the 500 and I'm proud that it means enough still, that he'd bypass Monaco to compete in it. |
Mike, I was a little harsh, I shouldn't have said your wrong, I should have said I disagree. We each have our own opinion, that's why we have this forum. Hopefully sometime this summer I'll meet you and apologize formally. And to brickyard, I respect his opinion as he's obviously well schooled in indy car racing. But I have to pat ISF on the back. His post is spot on. To me CART just represents big business, not about the best driver's for the biggest race. Mario, AJ, AL and Bobby never drove a rear engine car until they drove one and they seemed to do ok. I understand it's a bigger jump now days but you get my point. If you think that Jeff Gordon, Tony Stewart, and now Kyle Larson, to mention just a an obvious few, couldn't do what, Mears, Franchitti, Dixon, Fittapaldi, or any one else who's had success in the genre could do, then you need to turn in your race fan license
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If there was ever a subject more worthy of this :deadhorse: than CART vs. IRL I don't know what it would be.
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I enjoy your posts, by the way. :D |
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Whether Tony George or CART decimated top echelon American open wheel racing is positively open to interpretation. Subjectivity rules over such debates until irrefutable evidence presents itself in favor of one or the other and no one expects that to ever happen.
What is absolutely true and not subject to opinion is this. Had CART been the top sanction with all the nuances in place regarding road courses and importation of foreign drivers post WW II up to around 1990 it's very likely we'd never have seen A.J. Foyt, Al Unser Sr., Rick Mears, Bobby Unser, Gordon Johncock, Johnny Rutherford, Roger Ward, Rufus and many, many more ever race and/or win at Indianapolis. And I will NEVER believe that Steve Kinser and Jack Hewitt would ever have qualified for an Indy 500 without the actions of Tony George. For that I will always be grateful. Maybe they should not have been there, maybe they should have but I am very happy they got the chance. All the rest of the yammering about who torpedoed Indy Car racing in just noise. |
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Absolutely CART had issues, but it also didn't need to take dropping a nuclear bomb on the thing to fix those issues. Both sides were culpable in the split happening. I think those owners really underestimated the amount of money that Tony was going to pour into it to ensure victory and ownership of the whole thing. What I really want to know, is how does an owner who doesn't get into this thing until 1968 by running Donohue in a few races and really doesn't get kicking full time until the 70's have enough clout to override and strongarm a sanctioning body and it's owners into a decision to drop dirt from the schedule after 1970. It has always sounded way too good to be true to me. Perhaps your answer might lie in the direction that the collective sought in regards to their product. In regards to the post on it being hypocritical to not want to stuff money into a dirt car but turn around and stuff it into lower rear engine formulas, well, at this level it's a business. Those owners have this thing called vision. They know the direction things are going and they can see what's coming. In a series that didn't run more than 5 dirt races from 1965 onward and got rid of them completely after 1970 why would you be socking your money into a dirt car when you can put into a lower level formula car and not only prepare future drivers for the top level but sports cars as well? That white paper I speak of? Gurney and those guys didn't want to destroy Indy, they've said as much in interviews and it's right there in the paper itself. What they wanted was to take something that had huge potential and was being neglected by the current group and build it. Yeah, you got Hewitt, Kinser, etc in there after 1996. My question to you is, where are they now? Why is that? Well, your answer lies in the result of that split that you so desired. In 1995 there were 45 drivers who attempted to get into the field. Two chassis and 6 engine options. Now you have one chassis and two engine manufactures who are limited on what they can field. For the life of me I will never understand why anyone would think what happened as a good thing nor will I ever understand why anyone would want to take one of the oldest and most prestigious automobile races in the world and water it down just so they can say they got to see one of their local heroes in the race....someone who more than likely isn't even going to be a blip on the radar screen of the world. I have absolutely nothing against Buddy Lazier, and there were some talented people in that 1996 field, but to say that was the same as going out and beating a field that included Al Unser, Jr., Jacques Villeneuve, Bobby Rahal, Jimmy Vassar, Michael Andretti, Emerson Fittipaldi, Nigel Mansell, Mario Andretti, and Paul Tracy...well I know who I would want to prove myself against and it wouldn't be the wattered down version. It essentially went from major league to triple AAA overnight, but hey, you got your heroes there by God. |
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Please, never suggest using late-model IndyCars- those things are death traps compared to what competes today. I like to see my favorite drivers go home to their families after the race; and to compete another day. If you wanna see our favorite USAC stars back at the Speedway, get them into an Indy Lites car. That's what Bryan Clauson did, and did it the correct way, hence, he made it to the 500. Take that "40-100k" and buy a ride for the Freedom 100. |
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How low Indy Car racing would have gone on the racing totem pole had CART stayed in control is anyone's guess. Probably not as low as it did, but with the exploding popularity of NASCAR and the CART schedule weighted 2 to 1 in favor of street and road courses over ovals at the time of the split things weren't looking all that rosy no matter what happened and who was in charge. |
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Do you know who sanctioned IndyCar racing up until 1955? Do know why USAC was created? Are you aware that street and road racing is not a new phenomena in IndyCar racing? In fact from 1905 to 1941 over 100 of them were ran. Do you know the full title of the Indianapolis 500? I'll give you a hint, it ain't the 500-Mile Home Grown Boy Whoopin' Up on European Nancy Boys Sweepstakes. Quote:
Speaking of groin grabbers....you might want to forward this video to 58 seconds an listen. It along with a lot other things that I and others have come across have brought some forth some light on a few things......I seem to remember the destruction was on because the "evil CART owners didn't want nothing to do with little Jeffy boy." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNbU4vIYn1E I suggest you read this as well: https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/j...n-jeff-gordon/ |
First I'd like to wish everyone a Happy Easter and in honor of our risen Savior Jesus Christ I'm going to make every effort to be civil and respectful in my responses.
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One thing I think that has to be acknowledged is there is a difference of POV between fans and racers, we just see things differently. Having said that I'm going to concede that you and I will most likely never agree and that this will be my last response to you in this thread. I am a racer, I've also been a crewman and I've also worked in the motorsports industry building shocks for the entire spectrum of motorsport, from oval to road and drag racing, to handicap downhill skiers, to snow mobiles and commuter trains. I've dedicated my life's work to being "IN" motorsports one way or another. I've been involved in racing going back to 1986 when I was 16 and I've worked on several different types of cars, but not one of those cars had a speedometer in it... I've never seen anyone declared the winner for having turned the highest top speed and the reason is, actual racing isn't about achieving the highest speed. My guess is that you are a fan of "The Indy 500", that is your main thing, your holy grail. You obviously are well versed in its history or at least know how to use google and have lots of free time. Whichever, it doesn't matter, but you being a fan have your own ideas about what constitutes a race, specifically the Indy 500 and you have your own opinions about what led to its decline in stature and/or relevance. I do find it humorous that you believe the American racers should have changed how and what they race so as to be better suited for racing in the Indycar ranks. The Indianapolis Motorspeedway is an oval track, the majority of tracks in America are ovals and the highest percentage of those, are dirt. Racing on a dirt oval track is about as American as it gets, road racing has never been a big draw in the US, it's just not what we like. We play our own games, we drive on the right side of the road and we like V8 engines. American racers are doing exactly what we've always done and frankly what we are good at. I know you like CART and Penske and going 235MPH and that you believe TG is the devil and that he brought the roof down on "Your" race. While I don't disagree that things didn't go to plan, I do think the idea of returning the focus of IndyCar racing back to ovals was the right thing to do. There didn't have to be a split, Penske and the other owners who left could have stayed and worked things out, but the "Captain" chose to leave and took his friends with him. Racing is NOT about who can set the highest top speed, not even in drag racing. Top Speeds are something they do at The Bonneville Salt Flats. Most fans, especially today, don't care about peak velocity or technology, in truth the higher the speeds the worse the racing. You scoffed at my suggestion of using something like a Gold/Silver Crown car, but I actually love open wheel racing, American style. It doesn't have to be a roadster, but I would like to see any and all wings phased out. |
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