Tire Rule Question
 

Question is if a track had an open tire rule or just a durometer rule would you be more willing and likely to go run that track. Comparing that to the tracks and sanctioning bodies that have a 4 tire rule for one brand. I would like to hear driver and especially owner opinions, as the owner is the one paying the tire bill. As it was stated by someone on this site at one time, tires are one of the biggest expenses a car owner has when operating a race team. My opinion as a car owner/driver is I want to choose where I spend my money and decide which tire manufacturer gets my money based on the bang for the buck. I want the longest lasting best performing tire for my money. I would be more likely to run at tracks that have an open tire or durometer rule as to a track with a 4 tire rule. I want to try and keep this as an informative open discussion about what i think is an important topic in Indiana Dirt Sprint Car Racing and not a manufacture and sanctioning body bashing. I hope that track owners and promoter can tack this and make an informative decision when making and choosing to have a tire rule and listen to some of the car owners/drivers.

" Longest lasting" and "best performing" usually aren't the same no matter what part of the car you talking about.

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So Chris you pay for tires on a race car what is you opinion. Would you be more likely to run a track with an open tire or durometer rule over a 4 tire rule? I get what you are saying about Longer lasting and best performing but with an open tire rule I can choose what I want.

I feel that fortunate in that with a tq we can run what we want, wanna burn off a soft tire go for it etc. we're not bound by brand or compound either way. Although I will say most people run about the same thing and for the most part compound. The guys with the 10" wheels seem to lean towards Hoosier whereas 13" is most American racer. Seems to me that at the end of the day what works for your car may not suit anyone else's car, or it may. Granted we don't go through half as many tires as say a Usac team I would want to be able to run what I want to run. I know from a money standpoint that's not the best solution though. Open it up but make em run the same rr start to finish for the night unless it gets punctured.

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Good thing we are getting closer to spring, and we can start talking about the racing. Now with this thread, we have officially hit on all of the topics that we always discuss during the off season.

Every track and every sanctioning body is looking for ways to increase their revenue. For the most part, when you have a one brand tire rule, you also have an official tire of the series. The tire company and the track will have some sort of financial agreement that benefits both groups. As long as all of the drivers have the ability to buy all of the same tires, I do not have a problem with the arrangement.

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tires, if promotors take care of the track they last longer.

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As the one who buys the tires (and everything else on the car) there are more important considerations than tires when in comes to deciding where to race. Location, purse, and just generally feeling appreciated for supporting a certain track/organization are prime considerations for us. As far as the rules it is my opinion that if you are going to have a tire rule the easiest way to enforce is to mandate a certain tire. I'm not convinced that the durometer readings can be consistent enough to use as an objective measure. I would rather race under no tire rules than durometer rules.

Just my opinion.

Tim Simmons

If I wanted to race at a certain track bad enough I would follow their rules.

I dont like tire rules. Its in the owners decision to go or not go. Ive figured out if guys want race they race no matter cost. If they were racing for bolonga sandwiches wouldnt matter.

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I don't have any dog in the fight other than not really wanting to go to shows with less than three heats, hopefully a consi so nobody's safe and a feature of the main class.

That being said, Here is what I don't get. They mandate a brand, Then the hardness. OK, It's a Hoosier Medium. Ok, There is five teams that maybe can afford to slap a new Hoosier Medium on. They'll probably win if the tire last.

There's 25 teams that can't afford a new tire or two every night. In fact, If they could put a hardness on that would last five, six, seven nights, That team would be back next week and the week after just by saving that $$ for fuel for both the hauler and the car.

So why isn't the harder compounds allowed? I could then use my Hoosier Medium to make about 5 heats and transfer and a harder compound to run several features.. That way at least Im getting something back over tow money.

I think WoO and Allstars both have the choice of three hardness's and the LM's do too as I often hear them say, Well such and such choose the sofer and I picked medium and mine didn't come in till about 15 laps.

Im not a fan of the tire rules period. Nowhere do I see em helping the sport.

.

Personally, I am a fan. 1) the medium is hard enough to get about 65-70 good laps out of it as long as it doesn't take rubber or get too abrasive 2) without a mandated tire that isn't terribly soft like a rd12, big teams would be running rd12's and it is difficult to compete when they are using brand new RD12s 3) it's one less setup variable for new teams. Essentially with an open tire rule, big teams would buy softer tires and change them more often, thus having both newer and softer tires. Right now those teams just have newer tires.

I am not a fan and here's my opinion.

They are not sponsoring me, or giving me any kind of incentive to run that tire. It cost me more money and honestly I don't like someone telling me what I can and can't do on my race car.

Now, does it stop me from going to these race tracks. Sometimes, sometimes not.

We can have a tire that meets a certain hardness. But till one brand is sponsoring me I think we should have a choice. Hoosier medium or American Racer mc2. Because I have to foot the bill. And there is a difference in price.

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With the different chemical treatments available today, I'm told you can treat tires to behave in many different ways without effecting the durometer reading. Early in my racing career when I raced karts I soaked my tires with many different things, it wasn't illegal and was openly practiced by everyone. As I matured and learned about the dangers, I stopped soaking and began buying a larger inventory of tires so I could select the proper compound for the surface. I actually ran better once I gave up soaking, now having said that I'm more in favor of open tire rules than exclusive tire rules. I hate track tire rules because one, they usually only benefit the track owner and the tire supplier and two, they tempt those among us who have a bit of larceny in their hearts to cheat, and steal a victory. Call me stupid, naive or ignorant, but I won't knowingly ever cheat for an advantage, period. If there must be a tire rule I prefer the ones that are, "open" brand/compound, but maybe stipulate you have to race on the same tire you qualified on with maybe an optional RR change. Excessive nascaresque type rules and limiting individual creativity and ingenuity in racing are why I left DLM racing & karting. That's my take on tire rules, less is more, as long as the rules are consistently enforced on "everyone". :6: I don't like rules that reward the lazy racers who don't want to have to make an effort either in mental thought or a commitment in time. Learn to be faster.

You can run a "Hard" if you want to

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I like what I see so far, it is nice to see others opinions on tire rules. I said before I think this is something that needs discussed to me it seems to come up in conversations a lot but no one seems to want to discuss it in a public forum. I personally would like to see all the tracks in Indiana either go to an open tire rule or (I still don't like it but it is better than all 4) back to a Right rear only rule. BOSS has an great average car count and I think had 17 full time cars follow and travel with them and I believe it had a lot to do with the open tire rule.

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Maybe in War, In USAC it has to be allowed by officials and then if you don't have one on you, you probably can't get it at the track.

Most track websites that have a tire rule only list the Hoosier Medium.

Not at all arguing, I just wondered why they can't choose other than a tire guaranteed to wear out for the feature for those knowing it will. They want to race tomorrow night or next week too.

The Medium is plenty hard in most instances unless a track takes rubber, in which case no tire is hard enough.

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Most people won't even run the Hoosier Hard tire,because once you get heat in it and say during a feature and a caution comes out and the tire cools off it then seals over and your on a freight train to the back. I've run the Medium in some pretty bad track conditions and have yet to have one not make it to the finish of the race.

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Good to know. I like having the hard option though.

Go spend two weeks with a new team that is trying to keep up with the teams that have been doing it for 20 years. One more constant really hopes those new teams. But, you may not like leveling the playing field both on an economic and experience scale. So you will probably just end up complaining and wondering why so many teams stop doing it. When those teams work 50 hours a week on their job, then spend all weekend at the track learning,struggling, and burning through money they might eventually call it quits because it isn't fun anymore. I have a hard time calling any racer who pays for, works on, and drives their own equipment lazy....

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I think that this post is right on. There are several people who have hinted that they think that an open tire rule would help the smaller teams, and that a tire rule punishes the smaller teams to buying a certain tire. We all know that tires are the most important part of the equation of getting the car to go fast. If the well funded teams had an open tire rule, they would completely outspend everyone else. At that point, in order to compete you will have to change the tires as often as the big teams do. It is a losing battle.

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I heard that part of the reason Edison quite was tire cost and the tire rule. I can not confirm that but only know it was told to me this weekend. I also have been told that the tire that was used last year on the right rear was different then the one in 2015 and some teams struggled do to that change.

As for tire cost Hoosier RR somewhere around $220, American Racer $165 to $185. Was told Hoosier LR $200 + American Racer is in the $165 range, Hoosier Fronts $175 Range I believe American Racer fronts $135 range. Yes the money guy is always going to put a new tire on but if you let the low money guys be able to spend less on tires they also will be putting on new tires more often. This also allows the low budget guys to run more races.

I understand tacking a variable out when learning what your driver and car want but you can figure that out by not changing the tire you run. This would be much cheaper to learn if you have a choice in tires to run. Choose and MC2 and run that tire while you learn.

Open Tire rules also force tire manufacturers to make a better tire and not just make a tire and say too bad run if its the rule. It creates competition between manufacturers. If you want racers to run your tire create contingency deals where if they win on your tire they get $ or a new RR.

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I've been racing for more than 30 years and I think its sad that a new generation thinks they shouldn't have to pay their dues, to put in the time and effort to learn, like those that went before them. Its totally fair for someone with experience to have an edge over someone who doesn't, that's why its called experience. Everybody starts out new(green), you make your mistakes, you learn your lessons. Too many young people these days expect they should be ushered to the front of the line, just because they are young. What I love about racing in contrast to other sports, we don't give trophies out to everyone because you showed up and participated... Maybe the new teams you mentioned should take your advice and spend 2 weeks with the guys who've been doing it for 20 years instead of rewriting the rules to accommodate their lack of knowledge and motivation. I've been the new guy, everybody has, but I didn't ask to have the rules rewritten to accommodate my skill level, I read, I asked questions and I took the time to learn. One thing that a very experienced racer told me when I was starting out, and its the same for most everyone, "If racing were easy, everyone would do it." - Leon Sells

You see racing is more like real life than the xbox games and sports this younger generation are use to. There are no do overs, no cheats to win the game or give unlimited lives. Racing as in life, requires hard work, sacrifice, dedication and experience to have success. The mistake most make in racing is not racing a class they can actually afford, I read an article several years ago that said a lot of teams are 2 sometimes 3 classes above what their budget would support. Everybody works in racing, 50 hours actually sounds like a nice week, let me know when you start having to do 6 or 7, 12 hour days and racing must stop completely until further notice.... Learn to be fast, learn about attracting and keeping sponsors, put in the time, it won't always be fun, but that my friend is life. ;)

Back in 07' and 08' I was helping out on a crate late model team and we had an HOF driver, we raced 2-3 times a week and won at least 1 show a week and ran 2nd or 3rd in the others. I had a younger guy come up to me that was racing against us that was furious about his tire expenses, he said that the tires were terrible and he was having to put on (2)new rears every race and that it wasn't fair(this was with a tire rule). I looked at him and told him, you may want to look at your setup or how your driving the car because we were getting 2 races out of our RR tire and 3-4 out of the other 3 and winning, he was barely in the top 5 and running new rubber every race... Just because having an open tire rule makes it where you can run "new" rubber whenever you want, doesn't mean its always an advantage or necessary.

Budget minded teams learn how to maximize their resources, use different grooving techniques and grinding to extend tire life. You learn you don't leave tires out in the sun, don't wash tires with "simple green" type cleaners because it pulls the oils out of the rubber and on and on. If your a new team with limited experience, instead of trying to, "monkey see-monkey do" what the experienced guys are doing, put yourself on a tire rule, focus on learning to drive and setup the car correctly instead of trying to match components. A go-pro would have been a God send back when I was coming up or video on phones, you can learn so much. Compare what your car looks like going around the track compared to the fast guys, if you or your driver isn't driving the car correctly tire rules won't fix your issues. Now I'm not saying its a talent issue, its a technique issue, which takes practice to get it right, "perfect practice", not doing it wrong over and over. If your the driver find someone who'll be honest with you and watch you drive and tell you what your doing wrong. Don't make excuses, be honest with yourself.

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I run North Vernon because American Racer Tires are 75% the cost of a Hoosier. I also don't agree with Hoosier having "deals" with teams that are forced to run their tires anyway. In all reality, my $220 RR Tire purchase is paying for those other teams to get free tires. Those teams getting the free tires probably don't need the free tire.

Tire rules are dumb. It doesn't matter if you can choose a soft, medium, or hard, the top national teams are going to put brand new tires on the rear of the car almost every time it hits the track. I can't afford that and refuse to throw away a tire that has one night on it like many of the national teams do.

If I lived closer to Ohio, I'd support the BOSS series more just because they allow American Racer Tires and Hoosier Tires. Multiple tracks last year created a "Hoosier Only" rule and that cost me $1500 as I then I had to buy 4 left rears and 2 fronts just to race the local tracks.

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As an owner-operator with absolutely zero budget my best case scenario would be a track that had a minimum durometer rule...and if they also said you must start the A main on the same RR that you ran in the heat race that would suit me even better. I already know my used tire is at a disadvantage, but if I knew I didn't have to compete against people willing to completely use up a softer tire every time they rolled out on the track I would feel like I was up against less of a disadvantage. And the durometer rule means I can use whatever brand or whatever stamped spec tire I dug out of the trailer or found the best deal on.

Taking your lumps in this age is a little different than it used to be. The cost to race in the past 30 years has easily increased by over 50% in maNY classes. Yet the payout for a specific special race has only increased by around $200 in 30 years. Not to mention, the challange of finding sponsors in a world where spectators are dwindling and the value of a racing sponsorship is decreasing. This financial challenge can greatly effect the amount of time a team has from going from being 'green' and logging laps, to needing to start covering expenses by finishing better to get a better payout. You see experienced, respected, talented, and hardworking racers give up the sport because it just isn't like it used to be, or it isn't worth. So, why not make it just a tad bit easier for everybody, even the experienced guy. I am not saying it has to be a tire rule, it could be any rule. But when you are dealing with dwindling car counts, 1 or 2 spec part rule can really help everyone, even those experienced guys.

With current shock and suspension technolgy the amount of adjustability in sprint cars is vastly greater than it used to be. Shocks now can have 15 plus different settings per shock. Trust me, crew chiefs and drivers never run out of things to think about to try and squeeze out a little more speed.

Many drivers would gladly burn 1000s of hours turning laps and testing to make up every gap in experience, but you just can't do that in a sc, and the teams you see who take every track test n tune opp, and are there from gate open to gate close, improving and getting better are not lazy. But I am done arguing about this, it is way off topic.

They still do ...just keep putting fresh rubber on, you can't say new tires don't have advantage...

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I agree, cost containment is a neccessity, but rewriting the rules to help out somebody who doesn't want to make the effort because it interferes with FB time or isn't instantly successful, is an insult to those of us who've been dedicated for 30+ years. I don't mind helping the new guys, when they'll listen, I love teaching, but racing isn't "t-ball", it only rewards those who actually perform better than the rest. That can mean different things, sometimes its being the fastest, sometimes it means outlasting the other guy and sometimes its putting yourself in position to take advantage of luck smiling on you. I don't mind having rules that curb costs, but I don't want to be put in a box all together so my experience means nothing, I left DLM & Karting for that very reason.

In the late 90's I wanted to learn more about suspension, so I applied for and got a job at Carrera Racing Shocks. It paid $8 per/hr to start and that was a $2 per/hr cut from where I'd been at that time. I was married, my wife was still in college and we had a house, so to make ends meet I delivered pizza at night and cleaned offices for a few extra bucks when I got done with pizza. I started as an assembler, but by the end of the first year I was promoted to production supervisor and soon began assisting engineering with R&D and overseeing all repairs.:8: You see nobody else out on the floor, outside engineering and tech/sales, really cared about the products or what made them work, I did. I made the effort to learn and put in the effort and ask questions. My tenure lasted from 98'-04' when the company was sold to QA1. I'm still friends with the founder/owner D!ck Anderson and have contacts in the racing world, but I was willing to sacrifice and take the time to learn from those who had experience and knowledge. I was later offered jobs with Genesis Racing Shocks when they started up and at MagneShock too, but I'd moved from the area and wasn't able to realize those opportunities. :15:

Having rules to nullify experience and so called, "level the playing field" is just plain wrong. Its the same as telling the guy who went to med school/college/internship, to learn to be a surgeon, that we've decided to let a highschool drop out take over doing operations because he really wanted the job and didn't want to be bothered with education...:26:

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As someone who has been around sprint cars for 30 years in the nonwinged and winged scene here is my thoughts. I think a lot of people forget how things were when there were no tire rules. Teams used to have in their trailer McCrearys, Hoosiers, and Goodyears and a wide variety of compounds of each of them. Teams would run different brands depending on the tires performance at certain tracks. I remember switching the rubber from brand to brand, back before air guns. Whew. If a guy wanted to be up front you had to be on certain tires otherwise you would be mid-pack or worse. Heck I remember the days when Hoosier had to give away tires in the late 80's and guys still wouldn't run them. I remember guys running Hoosiers through the heat then strapping on another brand in the B just to make the feature. Right now it is tough to tell if one brand is better than the other when it comes down to performance.

Do I think the spec tire program has got out of control, YES. Tire companies have raised the prices and the money goes to the tracks and sanctioning bodies, which is suppose to be put back into the car owners via point funds. If you took away the kick back to tracks and sanctioning bodies the tires would probably be $25-50 cheaper per tire. The one thing I would like to see is making teams buy their tires from the track or sanctioning bodies to eliminate teams on getting deals. As said above the guys getting deals can most likely pay for the tire bill anyway. I know of a track in WI that makes guys do that. Puts their own marks on the tires so you have to get it from them. I know this would make things difficult for guys who want to run 1 night or buy used tires.

I still think the spec tire is the way to go but there needs to be a way to cut the cost as it goes up 3-5% a year.

Heavier (cheaper) cars can hook up Harder (longer lasting) tires and need less (cheaper) horsepower to do so...and mandate steel ($60 non-gas shocks). It's all been done before and of course with much higher car counts.

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Okay there have been some good points made but I really would like to know as a car owner or driver paying for tires for a sprint car in Indiana. If all things being the same, Pay out and pit pass costs etc. if you have the option of running a track with an open tire rule or a track with a four corner tire rule which track would you run. Knowing what I know about cost of the tires I have to choose from I'm buying a set of American Racers and going to the track that has the open tire rule.

To be honest even knowing the quality of cars that run USAC and the Talent I am more likely this year to go run a USAC show knowing I am only forced to run a RR specific tire. Letting me save money on the other 3 corners will allow me to be able to figure a more expensive RR into the deal for a night.

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You guy's have convinced me that having a hardness rule is necessary, Yet it should always be open to a harder compound.

I've yet to see how a four corner rule helps anyone. It might help the track. But IMHO it hurts racing If someone can run for several thousand less in a season. They should be able to have that option.

I agree.

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I don't have an issue with setting boundaries established by rules, but not in favor of one part for everybody at all times, it encourages tire cheating, I've seen it. Down here in Georgia we have a DLM series that went to "Hoosier D55" rule all 4 corners. It led to very boring single file racing. Then an enterprising fellow decided he could make good money and win lots of races if he simply modified the labels on different tires to say, "D55". They had Hoosier come in and examine the suspected tires and even they couldn't look at the tires and tell which was which. They finally just opened the tire rules back up to "ANY" Hoosier and killed his little enterprise. The racing got better too. I don't mind being limited on choices for the RR, but not just one for all conditions. A minimum hardness is a good place to start, but you must allow grooving, grinding and/or sipping too. Being able to redress the rubber can really extend a tires life. :6:

These are non-wing sprint cars, you will rarely ever see single file racing, yes, you may get a hooked up track that may end up single file. Second, there are no limitations on siping and groving. The doping of tires is truelly only an advantage if you go the expensive route, with a rotisserie. If u just roll it on or spray it one, you will burn that off fairly quickly on a slick track. There are very few people in Indiana who actually use a tire rotisserie (I don't know of anyone for certain), it's expensive,time consuming, and awful for your health.

Back on the topic of spec tires, I don't necessarily agree with a 4 spec tires, I agree with some variation of a rr rule, like a minimum hardness rule or a list of different options and brands, or just a spec rr tire like the Hoosier Medium. I just don't want to open it up to really soft tires (ie. Rd12's) because then you can end up in the outspending situation.

Its ********. And just as in ********, It's all about money. It's all about the kick backs. that's why no matter who says what about it nothing will change. Your voices aren't as loud as the crys of their "empty" pockets...

If enough teams decided they weren't going to take it any more and stopped going to those tracks it would at some point start to effect their money. Only then will you see any changes.

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LOL:D Yes, I know that we're discussing Non-wing sprints, that's what interests me.:27: I had a rotisserie when I use to run karts, but like you said its bad for your health and I gave it up for a larger tire inventory. You can also put the chemicals inside the tire if you wish. Actually the soaking is only as expensive as you make it, like racing. I'm curious how you know how many people in Indiana treat tires... Be well and don't worry if you keep racing and asking questions you'll get better, experience means a lot.:32:

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I agree the empty pockets of the track owners and sanctioning bodies cry loudly and I appreciate that we as racers. I agree that if enough racers would stay home and not support the tracks and bodies with unrealistic tire rules that only help them and the manufacturers our voices will be heard.

I personally as a car owner and driver made the decision last year to not run any track or sanctioning body that had a 4 corner tire rule. I will do the same this year as much as I like Bloomington, Kokomo and Putnamville I still plan to stick to my guns and not run those track unless it is with a group that has no tire rule or a RR only rule. I hear many racers and car owners complaining about the rule but they still got and race with the rule. To me it is a principle and I will support Paragon, BOSS and USAC and any other track or group with and open tire rule and as much as I don't like the RR rule I feel I can at least deal financially with that rule.

I was hoping to see some of the other owner I hear complain respond and state that they would or wouldn't run a track or group with the 4 tire rule and why as well as from those that support the rule and why. I still invite other that have not responded to this thread to respond I think all owners and drivers opinion are important to the sport and will help make it better and last longer.

and Yes I am responding to my thread to try and keep it towards the top because I think this is an important topic as I feel tires and tire rules are part of what hurt if not Killed Pavement Midget and Sprint car racing and I don't want to see the same happen to local Dirt Sprint car racing.