POWRi Division II Midgets
 

POWRi Division II Midget Specifications Released
Millstadt, IL –After the inaugural POWRi Division II midget race held on October 9th at Jacksonville Speedway, in addition to meeting with drivers and teams, POWRi officials have developed the following specification package design for the 2016 season. These specifications will be formatted into a complete rules package similar to the POWRi Lucas Oil National Midget Series and POWRi Speedway Motors 600cc Outlaw Micro Series. At this time, the POWRi Division II Midget Series 2016 schedule is being finalized and will be released in addition to the National Midget, West Midget, and Micro schedules in January 2016. The 2016 specifications for all POWRi Division II Midget Series are released on POWRi.com.
The link is: http://www.powri.com/newsdetail.asp?NewsID=21455

There is a typo chain drive weight is 950lbs

Re: POWRi Division II Midgets
 

One of the "legal" engines is the Subaru FB 25B, but the max displacement is listed as 2.4 liters and further down it states "a maximum of four (4) cylinders in line".
The Subaru is a flat 4, and 2.5 liters...

Re: POWRi Division II Midgets
 

jim

You left out opposed cylinders or Boxer motor. One bad dude on the street when pumped with a little extra air.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: POWRi Division II Midgets
 

Flat, opposed, boxer all mean the same thing. The point is there's an engine in the list that doesn't meet the maximum displacement limit (2.4) or the approved configuration (inline 4).
Also noticed VVT is being allowed (on automotive engines); did Wayne get overruled?

Re: POWRi Division II Midgets
 

Originally Posted by jjones752:
One of the "legal" engines is the Subaru FB 25B, but the max displacement is listed as 2.4 liters and further down it states "a maximum of four (4) cylinders in line".
The Subaru is a flat 4, and 2.5 liters...

RULE: Maximum displacement for 2.4L Engines: 2.4387 cc/Liters (148.82 CID)

Allowed...Subaru 2.4L (FB 25B) Displacement: 2.498cc (152.89 CID) "SUBARU" list as 2.5L

ALLOWED: The LE5 (only) 2.4L 2.384cc (145.89 CID)
Not ALLOWED:Eco-tec 2.5L 2.457cc (149 CID)


ALLOWED: Ford 2.3L Duratec 2.261cc (137.91 CID)
Not ALLOWED Ford 2.5L Duratec 2.488cc (152.14 CID) why not?

Re: POWRi Division II Midgets
 

Jim

Maybe they didn't know 25 meant 2500cc's. They also stipulate no V type engines and that inline 4 cylinder engines were allowed only. Probably goes back to Illinois rules somewhere.

A simple more simple statement saying that bore and stroke must remain as the particular engine was manufactured with .040 over bore allowed for wear. Instead of listing of engine on top of engine. Going to take a little time and consideration to get it all down. "KISS" trying to close all the loop holes usually mean that you simply leave one or two really big obvious ones in there. Stock motors change dimensions yearly. The rules need to address this. There is no real need to set everything in stone because the manufactures do this for you anyhow. Lets consider the life time of a motor to be 3 or 4 years. In that time new and better motors come to the market place. Why keep the old motor if you can up date to the newest trick motors even if they are smaller and maybe force fed. Times change and it should always be cheaper to buy new low mileage motors instead of dropping an arm and leg into a worn out old school motor.

Racers have simply not thought this way in the past. They generally had so much money in that old motor that they raced they would simply just welded in a patch put in a new sleeve and piston set and rod set grind the crank and go back racing. Now days junk yard motors have come such a long way in performance that this approach is not thinking logically. How would a bone stock Pinto motor compare to a new 4 valve motor as far as being ready to race right out of the car. But then if people were logical they probably would not be racing in the first place.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: POWRi Division II Midgets
 

Originally Posted by Sling'n DIRT:
RULE: Maximum displacement for 2.4L Engines: 2.4387 cc/Liters (148.82 CID)

Allowed...Subaru 2.4L (FB 25B) Displacement: 2.498cc (152.89 CID) "SUBARU" list as 2.5L

ALLOWED: The LE5 (only) 2.4L 2.384cc (145.89 CID)
Not ALLOWED:Eco-tec 2.5L 2.457cc (149 CID)


ALLOWED: Ford 2.3L Duratec 2.261cc (137.91 CID)
Not ALLOWED Ford 2.5L Duratec 2.488cc (152.14 CID) why not?

Sling

Right now they are trying too hard to be too specific with the displacement rules. That sometimes causes discrepancies when the rules are interrupted. They need to hire a lawyer-engineer to compose the rule book to dot all the "I's" and cross all the "T's" if it is intended to be this specific. Or just slack of a little bit and be a little more general in scope.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Waiting on a schedule

Re: POWRi Division II Midgets
 

Originally Posted by zeromotorsports:
Waiting on a schedule

POWRi normally releases their schedule at the Chili Bowl, I don't ever remember seeing one this early
Patience Johnny :3:

Re: POWRi Division II Midgets
 

I was just reading the rules for the Div ll midgets and have a question. The max displacement limit is 2.411 liters or 147.15 cubic inches and o.e.m. pistons are required. Are oversize o.e.m. pistons available for the ecotec? I bought an ecotec engine from a boneyard and took it to my local machine shop. They called and told me the cylinders are scored really bad. They said they could get oversized aftermarket pistons big enough, but not o.e.m. I hope I don't have to buy another engine just because o.e.m. pistons aren't available and aftermarket pistons aren't allowed.

Re: POWRi Division II Midgets
 

Originally Posted by SAC74:
I was just reading the rules for the Div ll midgets and have a question. The max displacement limit is 2.411 liters or 147.15 cubic inches and o.e.m. pistons are required. Are oversize o.e.m. pistons available for the ecotec? I bought an ecotec engine from a boneyard and took it to my local machine shop. They called and told me the cylinders are scored really bad. They said they could get oversized aftermarket pistons big enough, but not o.e.m. I hope I don't have to buy another engine just because o.e.m. pistons aren't available and aftermarket pistons aren't allowed.

as per rule: Maximum displacement for 2.4L Engines: 2.4110L Liters (147.15 CID)
Must use original manufacturers OEM pistons

Re: POWRi Division II Midgets
 

Wayne, I know the rule says max displacement for 2.4 engines is 2.04110 liters (147.15 CID.) What I need to know is if oversized o.e.m. pistons are available. The guy at the machine shop said .020 or .5mm oversize pistons would be the largest oversize that would be legal, but he can't guarantee the cylinders will clean up at .020 He said a lot of cylinders don't clean up even at .030, which wouldn't be legal anyway.

Re: POWRi Division II Midgets
 

Sac

Using the formula CID=Bore Diameter x Bore Diameter x .7854 x stroke x number of cylinders.

The stock bore and stroke is 88mm or 3.4645" and a stroke of 98mm or 3.8583" .020 overbore would be 88.5mm or 3.4845" that overbore would be figure out to 147.1728 cubic inches. Perhaps they did not carry their dimensions to .0001 but that is where the specs are set for this engine. The problem I see is they chose some sort of very accurate CID dimension, when a simple .5mm or .020 over bore will be allowed for wear would be simpler to understand and less open to debate.

Most stock replacement pistons OEM or re manufacture replacement ones are identical including weight and crown dimensions.

That being said I think looking for a late model low mileage motor while costing a premium would still be cheaper in the long run than a overhaul and possible overbore.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

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DAD, I just used the formula and the figures you gave. I came up with 145.488 CID for the stock ecotec. I don't understand why the max displacement rule would be 147.15 if you have to run o.e.m. pistons and no oversize o.e.m. pistons available. Am I missing something?

Stock ecotec pistons are available in .5mm oversize from the dealer for around $200 to $250. My thoughts on the situation would be to bring it back to the salvage yard and get another one. The concept behind this is that the engines are cheap enough that you can start over without putting to big of dent in the wallet.From what I gather all the engines are allowed .5mm for clean up.

Re: POWRi Division II Midgets
 

Sac

145.488 CID is with a stock bore 147.15 assumes an overbore of .020". Carry your decimal points out to 4 places and it should get in there where it is supposed to be. But like I said >.5mm over or .020" over would be much easier to understand for the average racer. The other thing to keep in mind that that number 147.15 CID assumes .020" overbore if you come up with .005 cylinder wear (very possible on dirt W/O chrome bores) if you bore to .020" and have .005" wear you would be considered too big and called possibly for a DQ. Fortunately Wayne's Bore scope does not possess those kind of tolerances so if he sticks it down your plug hole and it looks like a stock piston you should be OK..Mental note J&E and Wisco Pistons do not look like stock pistons on their tops. OEM pistons cast top Race Pistons Machined top.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: POWRi Division II Midgets
 

Here is a few pics of a Honda K24A1 with MSD ign,Engler Injection. This motor happens to be a dry sump but is available in wet sump as well.( Which is much cheaper to build) This will give viewers a look at what a Honda looks like in race form. This engine was built by Jim Stewart of Stewart Engine in Indy who has years of experience with Hondas and other 4 cylinder production engines.

Re: POWRi Division II Midgets
 

Here are some pics of the Honda K24A1 wet sump engine mounted in a car with the header we designed at Schoenfeld headers to fit the midget. This has been dyno tested by Jim Stewart of Stewart Engines in Indy with the Engler injection to come up with a good combo.

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A lot of guys are reading all of this tec stuff and gobbly goop about D2 Midget racing and wondering if it is right for you. Remember there are all kinds of ways to get into racing. If you want to create a small fortune racing and providing you already have a large fortune simply do a Google search and there are any number of people that can help you out and furnish you with a turn key race car and while you are at it maybe a hauler to go to the races in.

IF on the other hand you are living on a pay check and have a few other obligations that require constant attention there are other approaches. 1000cc Mini Sprints have proven to be more than adequate in the performance and competition department, you might want to consider one of them. In the Mid West Old Over the Hill Midgets are everywhere. Find a good not too bent up roller, find a good late model motor and buy the adapters to install it into a Midget chassis. While not as flashy as the cast aluminum individual injectors the throttle bodies on stock motors should provide enough power to get you started. I am sure with just a little research now and probably less research once these things get to moving you will be able to find people that can cut down the wiring harness and convert them over to Methanol. Probably with just a little knowledge of electronics and circuits the racer could do the same thing>>> the wiring schematic was available. I know we did it on Mini Sprints. Don't give up from "Sticker Price Shock" there are all kind of ways to skin that cat.;)

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: POWRi Division II Midgets
 

https://www.autozonepro.com/results/...42&partIds=237

Alldata Pro list the stock OEM piston and pin at $93.50 x 4.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: POWRi Division II Midgets
 

DAD, I was thinking about cylinder wear right after I used your formula for calculating cubic inches and found out that .5mm or .020 oversize was right on the maximum displacement limit. Boy, there sure isn't any room for error! If I have the machine shop hone this block for new .5mm oversize pistons, and it doesn't clean up, I'm out the cost of the engine plus the cost of having it honed. If I have it honed and it does clean up, I'll be OK as long as it doesn't wear any, all season long. :11: But if the cylinders do wear at all, the rules say I would be DQ'd and suspended for a year and fined $1000!!! Plus, I would probably be the laughing stock of the pit area. :10: I thought about taking this engine back to the bone yard and trading it for a different one, but when I called them, the guy said he can't take it back because it was sold as a rebuildable core and not a guaranteed running engine, plus I had already taken it apart. :15: I suppose I could cut my losses, scrap this engine and look for one with low miles, but how do I know what condition that engine is in? I mean, for racing purposes? I really don’t know what to do. Do you suppose the guys who run up front will be running bone yard engines, or will they be rebuilt? :47:

Re: POWRi Division II Midgets
 

with the d2 rules, can the block be sleeved?

Re: POWRi Division II Midgets
 

Originally Posted by SAC74:
DAD, I was thinking about cylinder wear right after I used your formula for calculating cubic inches and found out that .5mm or .020 oversize was right on the maximum displacement limit. Boy, there sure isn't any room for error! If I have the machine shop hone this block for new .5mm oversize pistons, and it doesn't clean up, I'm out the cost of the engine plus the cost of having it honed. If I have it honed and it does clean up, I'll be OK as long as it doesn't wear any, all season long. :11: But if the cylinders do wear at all, the rules say I would be DQ'd and suspended for a year and fined $1000!!! Plus, I would probably be the laughing stock of the pit area. :10: I thought about taking this engine back to the bone yard and trading it for a different one, but when I called them, the guy said he can't take it back because it was sold as a rebuildable core and not a guaranteed running engine, plus I had already taken it apart. :15: I suppose I could cut my losses, scrap this engine and look for one with low miles, but how do I know what condition that engine is in? I mean, for racing purposes? I really don’t know what to do. Do you suppose the guys who run up front will be running bone yard engines, or will they be rebuilt? :47:

Most are from the yard, unless someone wanted to buy a re-furb from a company. The engine, for the most part, was used up through 2012 in various GM vehicles. (remember "experts", I said, for the most part).

Short blocks, or long blocks are readily available just in case yours is bad.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/07-06-2006-2...xVTlVQ&vxp=mtr

Best of luck!! :6:

Re: POWRi Division II Midgets
 

Pole

Yes you could sleeve them, but you are beating a dead horse just go out and buy another low mile used motor, that is the intent of the series.

If USAC or Powri were to raise the displacement of the 4 valve motor to 2500 or 3000 cc's and mandate they use stock blocks and stock heads with altered porting allowed to include welding, you would probably see the demise of the $30,000.00 motors in a very short time.

Honest Dad himself:6::6: