Full Containment Seat Mandate
 

Enlighten of several injuries and 2 deaths within a 2 year time period the D-2 midgets and Southern States Mini/Micro Sprints have after quite a bit of intense study has determined necessary to mandate that ALL cars competing in the 2014 season must have an approved FULL CONTAINMENT seat...This will also be in effect for the 2014 Winternationals. I understand this will have a direct effect on all competitors but if it is not mandated most would not do it for their own safety. New seats are available from Butler Built, Kirkey, Ultra Shield and LaJoire from the price range of 450.00 to 1400.00. There are however MANY USED seats also out there from 300.00 to 600.00. Again I fully understand the expense of a seat but in an open **** pit race car I feel it is VERY necessary.

Re: Full Containment Seat Mandate
 

I commend you for doing that.

If it takes a big longer to get to the track, So be it. These things have been out for awhile. Can be bought cheap used and new form to you cast can be made.

Also Rollbar Padding is only a couple bucks and some racing tape. Window nets etc. Stay safer guys, It will never be 100% safe.

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It should be up to the drivers on what they run. Check out the seat the ripper runs out west

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Re: Full Containment Seat Mandate
 

I don't run your series, but I completely disagree with this rule. We can probably argue until the end of time about safety devices and their worth. I think it should be up to the driver to decide which seat he feels is the most comfortable and safe for his personal use.

I know of more than one instance where a doctor has told a competitor that the full containment seat most likely increased or possibly caused an injury in an accident. Remember, sprint cars are not stock cars, and the way they crash are completely different in most instances.

Good deal. That was the first thing that was put into my car when I built it. Nobody should ever cut corners on their seat and it should fit them correctly. Its ultimately up to each team buy its good to see some safety focus on a major piece of equipment. Seen some people with the wrong size or cutting corners due to cost which is always a bad idea.

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Re: Full Containment Seat Mandate
 

Can you back this up with fact? The official investigation into the death of Jason Leffler says: "Leffler was wearing a head and neck restraint, but a safety expert say he was not using a standard NASCAR seat that features a full containment headrest." One report said he had taken the left head wing off his seat in order to see to the inside.

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I'm not going to address the safety issue. I think it's a no brainer, but I will address what might be an overlooked issue your group may want to consider....

As the former Technical Inspector for a racing association ( I will not name them because I don't speak for them) there was some serious discussion about "Mandating" certian safety items beyond what was refered to as "Standard Practice" safety equipment. IE...Snell approved Hemlet, Firesuit, Full 5 point belts ETC...

Items like a Hans device and full containment seats were ONLY listed as "Strongly Encouraged" safety items.

The thought was that if they mandated non standard items it could potentionally leave the organization open to legal issues if those items were to fail and cause injury or death.

Again, just a thought, after all we are a lawsuit happy nation.....

The logic behind this type of statement is like saying well the doctor said you wouldn't have have gotten burnt nearly as bad if you wouldn't have been wearing any seat belts during that crash!!!!!! I'm sorry but what a load of **** its attitudes like this when it comes to safety that gets people hurt and killed if you have proof from a doctor we all would love to see it and not from DOCTOR SEUSE

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Re: Full Containment Seat Mandate
 

I cannot provide proof from any doctor as it was not me personally in the incidents.

I am not saying full containment seats are bad or cause more injuries. They may be great for many drivers and applications. I personally choose not to use one, and I feel it should be the driver's decision.

I know...If I don't like the rule, don't run the series. I won't, but I thought it was fair to provide my opinion before other series or tracks look into the same rule.

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I agree with Ryan, do not make us run what we do not want to run. Bladders and such that cause problems for other racers is one thing but when it is our own personal safety then that is up to us. Yes I have a great Hinchman suit with all the underwear and safety items.

However on the seats, what kind of seats are going to be allowed? There are some seats out there are so strong you can not move them at all. Which is BAD! Let's take for example you throwing a punch because you are mad at someone. Would you rather A) hit the other person and possibly hurt your hand, or B) not hit the person and go hit the brick wall and probably break your hand? Now I am not saying to go off and hit anything at all, but its a very good example of you crashing and hitting a total support seat that has a ton of supports and does not give at all(brick wall), or hitting a seat that gives somewhat. Now I am not saying go out and buy old junk or something rubber to sit in. I am saying there are some really tough and strong seats out there than we have no business being in.

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How about ROLL CAGE? when they where mandated MANY opposed them.....Firesuits...OPPOSED due to the tightness and restriction. Arm restraints...opposed......I understand NO ONE LIKES TO BE TOLD "YOU" have to change....hell look at Stewart he so opposed Hans devises ...as far as seat please refer to beginning of this

QUOTE: "New seats are available from Butler Built, Kirkey, Ultra Shield and LaJoire from the price range of 450.00 to 1400.00. There are however MANY USED seats also out there from 300.00 to 600.00" which means any seat that YOU are comfortable as long as it is a FULL CONTAINMENT seat

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I agree with this post because of the litigation posibilities, when you "force" someone to use something they are opposed to, and that really hasn't been proven to be "safer" than what is currently being used, you open up the door for a lot of trouble, same goes for "testing" someone for drugs, of which we could justify in court, but somewhere along the line, it went soft, so now if you even hint at a drug test, at a race track, even tho it is in the interests of safety, of the person, and the people around, you better just bend over, and kiss your "cheeks" goodby, a local track, on a local budget, can't afford the headaches, and another promoter and race track will be a shopping center. Too much of this stuff comes from what Nascar does, and if real racing paid as well as it does, who would not go along with whatever is mandated, or the penalties they impose. Too many do-gooders have about ruined racing as far as I'm concerned, the "peeps" that don't own a car or drive one, just "pine knots" with big mouths and even bigger ideas about things they never experience. Bob!

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I think full containment should be mandatory for all series. I am sure most of you don't know that the State of New Jersey controls all safety rules on race cars in the state of NJ and I am sure that they will be mandatory very soon in NJ. Cars that race from other series that don't normally compete in NJ like World Of Outlaws have to meet NJ rules when they compete there. If the state requires safety item you can't sue them. And who is going to argue with a State Trooper carrying his 9mm when he tells you, you are not legal.
I know of sprint car series in FL. that does not even require neck restraints yet.

Re: Full Containment Seat Mandate
 

What I would like to know is was the car that Jason was killed in checked by the NJ state police? Did they do a pre race check of the car? I'm not looking to be a jerk or start something. I have heard that he removed part of the seat, but had a cage net. Was the car legal-meet what rules are in NJ? Was it really the seat that caused the problem or was it just a bad hit-wrong place type of deal? It started with a torsion bar arm that came off-broke.

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God knows if the government says its right it has to be!!! That's all racing needs is for the government local or federal to be mandating rules! Good or bad!! As for the rule.... Leave to the racer but since I don't have a Dog in this fight I really don't have a voice...

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I was not there when this happened but state police are always at a race track in NJ and they are in charge over safety even if a track has there own inspectors SP can over rule. I used to live and race in NJ for many years and even help with rules. To me I wish all tracks & states were has good has NJ is with rules.

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IMO....in regards to the leffler deal....the stop fell off....not the first time its happened and IF his car was "checked" by the state police, they wouldnt have found anything wrong...i wouldnt be surprised if they dont make full containment seats mandatory because of jasons hard hit to the left side and the cause of death....but just wait till someone gets hurt or worse using a state mandated piece of safety gear....the lawyers will be at the track before the show is even over! and that sums up my opinion about making the seats mandatory anywhere. we have them in all 3 cars and wouldnt run without them (yeah, they have been crash tested) but i also know of one death in central pa. sprint racing that could have been prevented if he WASNT using a full containment seat......gotta weigh the chances for a "freak" accident happening against the positives of using the seat and be able to make your own choices cause no matter how safe you make the cars, people are gonna get hurt.....

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Here is what I know from my research:

Jason did not have "HIS" custom built seat in the car he was driving as it was a back-up...
Yes he removed the "LEFT" side headrest that had been bolted and installed a window net.. (to be more comfortable)....
there was no left or right side shoulder support....
Jason died from left side "Blunt Force Trauma" to the neck upon striking the outside barrier (wall) with the left side of the car...............

NJ STATE REPORThttp://www.njsp.org/news/pr062113a.html....


whether or not this becomes a necessary MANDATE for my series or not (due to Liability issues) I will STRONGLY urge any racer to have a FULL CONTAINMENT seat. I would go as far as to you get "BONUS" monies for having one along with a head and neck restraint. If we as promoters or track owners DO NOT INSIST racers will never change...some will not do it just to be a horses a$$.....Just like helmets 5 years after manufacture date, not shelve date....

Accidents happen...some can be prevented some can not....Don't bring grief to your many fans and family just because you don't like a safety issue and will not comply...

Re: Full Containment Seat Mandate
 

I'll never get in by the sidebars and shoulder wraps. Especially with a wing.

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As mentioned earlier, open faced helmets were eventually banned and everyone was forced to buy a full faced helmet if you wanted to race. Same with roll cages, firesuits, gloves, and so on. Not open for discussion. Do it or don't show up. Surely we're not so short sighted that we can't learn from the past. Would anyone like to go run a cageless sprinter with goggles and wing tips shoes. Hell no you say? Well at one time there were a whole bunch of guys who did it every weekend and when the day came they were told they had to build a cage and buy a new helmet you think they were pissed? Hell ya they were, but looking back now doesn't seem really dang obvious it was the right decision? This is the same thing. I have a Butler Sprint Advantage seat in my car custom built to fit me and I can't ever see myself strapping in without one. A driver died from internal injuries where we race last year. It was pretty well determined it was due to a cheap Kirkey seat and belts that weren't tight enough. Do we need to continue down this path before the next major step in safety is implemented? We just need to make the obvious choice now so that when my grand kids talk to me about race cars in 30 years they can say "Who the hell would drive one of them things without a containment seat? That's crazy?!"

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Re: Full Containment Seat Mandate
 

Well said 23....that was the point I was trying to get across....most do not like change specially a mandated one!!

.

So what your saying is, a full containment seat would have saved these 2 drivers lives?
Unbelievable

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Why is the focus always on the drivers and teams. Most tracks that I race at are not very safe. There is lots of small things that a track can do and not cost an arm and a leg. I crashed in canada a few weeks ago and it was one of the most unsafe tracks I have ever seen. They had rail road ties that was stood on end to hold up the dot steel gaurd rail. The ones that wasn't rotten were uneven in height.

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Re: Full Containment Seat Mandate
 

You knew how unsafe the track was yet you raced there anyway?

This is where the drivers should load up and go home. J.M.O.

Jerry

Re: Full Containment Seat Mandate
 

You guys have to remember, Ryan Leek is a legend in is own mind! :11;

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You didn't go quite far enough with the rap around seat rule. To make the racer even safer (just like NASCAR) rear view mirrors and spotters with radios in the stands should also be mandated to help with the loss of peripheral vision caused by the seats.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Full Containment Seat Mandate
 

Ok, I'll step into the fray with this one. I am going to name names , and may offend some people , but with my unfortunate dealings with accidents at the track, I think I've earned the right.

Jason wasn't killed because he didn't have a containment seat. He was killed due to a mechanic's failure, either through leaving something loose on the car,, or lack of proper maintenance.Some people may be offended with this statement, but I'm old school.Something falls of the car and kills the driver, it's the mechanics fault.When I worked on race cars, nothing fell off one of mine. As for whether or not a containment seat would have protected him after the failure, I'd say yes, but there are no guarantees, though it would have increased his odds of survival. This is Jason at Tri State in April. Notice the seat.
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8527/8...49ee2f38_b.jpg
IMG_7419 copy by uncloose1, on Flickr

The one I know where a containment seat would have made all the difference in the world is Arin MacIntosh. The accident she had at the Burg that night seemed so inconsequential that I didn't even pay attention. Was I wrong. She received a severe head injury , and if she had used a containment seat, she wouldn't have received one.

I just don't understand why drivers don't want to go toward safety , and rather run from it. Ask drivers who have head injuries if they wish they had the seat. Go see some whose head injuries are so severe they can't communicate, and ask yourself this,"Do I want to risk going through this, and do I want to put my family through it?" Oh, and also call Robbie Rice and check into STIDA, you may need to pay someone to change your diaper and wipe the food off your chin.

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Amen, Chris! Why wouldn't a Sprint Car or Midget driver take advantage of every safety item out there!? Why would you modify something that Brian Butler designed a certain way for your safety? I personally think a Hybrid Pro or a R3 Head and neck restraint is much safer than a Hans for sprint car racing. JMO

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Re: Full Containment Seat Mandate
 

Not everyone wants to live to a ripe old age.... let them choose what they want to run. If they want to use a 5 gallon bucket and bailing twine.. go for it.

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There's an old story of a guy in the 60s at a track where I grew up that used a dog chain for a seat belt in the coupes. He was killed when the dog chain broke.

Re: Full Containment Seat Mandate
 

sorry.... but does any1 now if the sprint car frames of josh and jason were the same NOT TRYING CAUSE **** BUT ***

He didn't alter anything on that seat. He had a sprint advantage full containment and didn't like it so he put in a standard seat with bolt on head rests and shoulder supports. Those do not come standard with left side head rests. He put one on and then took it off. He didn't like the big seat. But he did NOT alter the seat. Look at a standard seat and a sprint advantage seat. You can see the difference in the pics. Lets quit accusing Jason of altering things. He took his full containment seat out because he didn't like the lack of visiont. But full containment or standard seat Jeannie and Brian have the safest seats around and I trust their equipment with my life. This was a freak accident. As far as Josh he had a full containment seat...a lajoie i do believe.

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Re: Full Containment Seat Mandate
 

It wouldn't have made a bit of difference in Josh's case. Where he was injured, on the top of his head, there is no coverage.If it could go wrong, unfortunately for Josh it did.He also was running a full containment seat.

As for Spi-nex, great attitude except you left out the part where you DON"T get killed. Someone will sure like wiping your a$$ for the rest of your life because you can't. The only way that attitude works is if your an orphan, because if your not someone in your family is going to have to take care of you. To make someone suffer through your attitude just isn't right.

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Todd everything you say here is CORRECT. I would like to ad however is he did not reinstall the the lift side net that was in that car...it is to my understanding that this was the backup car with the seat already in and he did not take the time to remount his FC seat. and did not like the bolt in head rest.........

Racephoto 1...QUOTE: Jason wasn't killed because he didn't have a containment seat. He was killed due to a mechanic's failure, either through leaving something loose on the car,, or lack of proper maintenance.Some people may be offended with this statement, but I'm old school.Something falls of the car and kills the driver, it's the mechanics fault.When I worked on race cars, nothing fell off one of mine. As for whether or not a containment seat would have protected him after the failure, I'd say yes, but there are no guarantees, though it would have increased his odds of survival.

Did the part just loosen up after several laps like hot laps /qualifying/6 laps in the heat or did the pressure from the weight of the car along with down force cause the splines to strip? one thing is for sure Jason's death was caused from BLUNT FORCE TRAUMA to his neck on the left side. The same side that the headrest was removed and no head net was installed. these are the facts

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Dad how many things have you had to buy in your muffler shop to make it safer? When installing these things did any mechanic bit-ch? Did you Bit-ch when OSHA comes in and inspects your place of business and seen you where up to code and did not get fined? These new seats take away very little peripheral vision and are much safer.

you kinda sound like the Indy racers did back in '65 when NOMEX was mandated for the 500 racers...2/3rds of them wearing the "COTTON" suits that cost $18.00 did not want to spend $79.00 for a nomex suit so Andy Granatelli bought everyone a suit as long as they put STP on the suit.

look how long it took Smoke to "WARM" up to the Hans device....just don't understand why a racer NEEDS TO BE MADE to do something when it come to safety. I'm as OLD SCHOOL as they get specially with sprint and midget racing but I was in the 8th grade 8 times along with staying at a Holiday Inn once, so I am open minded enough to allow change to take it course....

Dad you would know more about the NASCRAP then me....They don't race on DIRT!!!!


As always THANKS FOR YOUR INCITE DAD!!!!

Re: Full Containment Seat Mandate
 

Arin did have a Lajoie containment seat at the burg.

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I was at Kokomo last night and I think every car in the feature either had a full containment seat or a standard seat with bolt on head guards and head nets. 20 drivers can't be wrong. I myself dont find a FC seat restricting in any way, and I actually love the support it has on my head on the right side. I run an ultra shield FC seat with a head net on the right side.

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Re: Full Containment Seat Mandate
 

It's not a right to race, but a privilege. If a sanctioning body wants to improve/implement better safety equipment, its their choice, just as it is a choice if a racer wants to run that organization. Racing, especially sprint cars is dangerous. No piece of safety equipment will save every life and in some rare instances could makes things worse, but that is the exception. I think most people would not drive a street car without seat belts anymore, but a rare individual may think seat belts are dangerous "just in case a car crashes into a lake and the driver can not get out, but i think most people would think in the majority of instances having seat belts is better. With containment seats, to be honest I do not have enough knowledge on the subject to give or make an opinion. I would let the smarter guys in room, help guide the discussion, let the science decide what is better. I think driving almost any race car without a head restraint system is asinine. If containment seats are deemed much safer, they should be mandatory (especially since their cost is now reasonable). Parts break in race cars, but when you crash, I would think most reasonable people would want the best possible safety equipment to reduce injury or even death. I'm sure the first time a driver put on a helmet, than with a hans, a fire suit, gloves, really tight seat belts it did not feel right or even comfortable. Once drivers become accustomed to better safety gear, it becomes comfortable in time.

PS Does Tony Stewart wear a head restraint system when he races sprint cars or dirt late models? I'm probably wrong, but I thought I saw picture of him not wearing a hans.

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Just remember, safety issues do not only effect the drivers, but also their family members as well as the racing fans in the stands.

From a fans perspective I NEVER want to see anybody injured or killed at a race I'm attending. In the thousands of races I've been to over my life it's only happened twice, and for me that's twice too many. It happened at Sun Prairie one night, and I know for a fact that several fans in the stands have never returned to that facility.

If it makes the drivers safer, then I'm all for it and would hope the sanctioning bodies make it a rule.

An earlier poster brought up a great point, I'd love to see tracks do a better job of making their facilities safer. I hate looking at a track and seeing unprotected ends of walls or unprotected things in the infield. As an example, attending the Silver Crown race at the Indiana State Fairgrounds had me aghast at the safety conditions along the front stretch.