Umra- king of the tq midgets
 

Immediate Release:
The board of directors for the Umra-King of the tq midgets have decided on the following enigne rules these rules will be in effect from 2017-2020.
The 2017 rules are any 636cc motor will be allowed to compete that the manufactured date is not newer than 2016. No motors newer than 2016 will until the 2020 year season. All present motors are allowed thru next year.
Starting in 2016 the honda 836 motors will be allowed to go to 917cc. This rule applies to the 750 honda motors only.This rule will be allowed thru the 2020 season. In the event that the honda motor is better than expected, weight may be added to balance the field.

The 636 engine package must remain stock bore and stroke.

All motors that are presently legal for 2016 will be allowed to compete thru the 2020 season. Those motors that are grandfathered are those that are already built 700 cc and below and ran last season. These motors that are under 700cc but are not stock bore and stroke, will be allowed to run, but will have a added weight rule starting at the start of the 2017 racing season. The individuals that ran these motors last year will be the only ones allowed no new motors bigger than 636 cc stock bore and stroke will be allowed.


Theses rules are being used to keep racing down thru the 2020 season.

The racing banquet is scheduled for Saturday January 30th, 2016 at the Indiana Grand Casino, at 6:30pm . More details will be forthcoming. The board of directors for 2016 are Randy Literal, Danny Percell, and Larry Martz.

Thanks
Terry Eaglin

Re: Umra- king of the tq midgets
 

Sounds like a plan! Early start, should give everyone time to be ready. Bob

Tq29m are you Bob mcclure. If so i would like to talk to you I have one of your cars and the driveline is yours to and the adapter part that mounts to the motor plate is broke so I am not able to run my Sanders drive line stuff

Way to alienate current and future cars by solving a problem that doesn't exist.

Are you sure you guys don't work for the federal government?

Sounds like they're trying to maintain a fair playing field and keep costs reasonable.seems like a good idea to try something.If some want to spend bigger money and have bigger engines,maybe they should move up to a bigger class.

That's garbage and the tq owners and drivers know it. If that was 100% TRULY THE CASE then do like countless other tq groups have done for 4 valve technology: cap it at 750cc. A stout Honda 836 will run just fine against a 750. This ruling hurts everything because now you either have to dump a crap ton of money into a 600 or 636 (think driveline parts not the engine) or go out and spend big bucks to make your 836 even bigger.

This is a no brainer Eaglin boys: ya done stepped in it, while walking in the wrong direction.

You say do what countless tq series have done name them because there not around anymore so king of tqs trying also if not a problem why is a lot of drivers switching to the 636 and name all the drivers that won this year with 750 against the 636.

Re: Umra- king of the tq midgets
 

It is very evident that someone (jontheturboguy) has his head jammed up his posterior.Countless other tq associations?????Start naming them them.You must have your eyes shut at the races.It is obvious that the New engines are a lot faster than the old 750 Hondas!!!!

Western States tq USAC
Nmra
Florida tq
New Zealand
Australia tq

USAC hasn't sanctioned a T.Q. Midget series for many years out west, the east coast guys are totally a different animal with the offset engines, etc., I have heard T.Q. racing is pretty much dead in Florida and already died in Illinois. As far as down under; this is the U.S. We here in Indiana are the last of a great class and if it dies here, It's over! We need to do all we can to preserve this class, and the great history which was started by U.M.R.A. in 1961 when Mel Harpring took home the first title! I have moved on to Sprint Cars many seasons ago, but still love to jump in a T.Q. from time to time or go watch! Let's stop the negative and look at what Terry Eaglin is trying to do! He is trying to keep T.Q. Midget racing alive!

Re: Umra- king of the tq midgets
 

I had every intention of staying out of this, but at my age, my weakness wins. As far as I'm concerned, the TQ's have had the best engine rules anywhere, they allow you to think out of the box, and experiment, I'm the guy that simply hates stock classes, and likes to try different things. I've been kinda off base the past couple of years, and haven't tended to my car as I should have, and it has shown, finally got myself primed to quit looking at the same thing, and found the motor had a cylinder going down, one or both of the exh valves are leaking on one cylinder, which would make it run bad. I'm glad Terry has positioned himself so the current engines can still run for a year or so, letting the Honda's go to 917cc will tell pretty quick how reliable they will be, for the money spent. That being said, the 4 valve motors are still in the hunt, thankfully, there isn't much difference in the way they run with the Honda, taking everything into consideration, and if a racer has enough savy to build one, it doesn't need to be any more expensive to run one, I started running one in 2005, and when we were running almost every race, it was easy to keep on top of it, and I felt that for the money I had invested in the engine program, we were getting a good return on our money, in fact, that little Yamaha made me some good money, and will be rebuilt, and back in for next year. For me, having my own machine shop, building either one is cheap, the Yamaha is very inexpensive, no need for special rods, valves, cams, head work and the like, and good, low mileage engines are CHEEP, plus you can use everything you get, but it does require some research, and the ability to be able to actually build an engine, to me, that's where the fun begins, being able to do most of it yourself, then testing it against the rest. I'm glad to see a set of engine rules out this soon, it will give everyone a chance to decide what/which way to go, and hopefully make good decisions. Good luck next year, hope I'm able to be there with you! Bob

So my thought is I will try to bore mine to 919 like it says so at that point I can go run some D2 stuff also but I'll see what happens. But I do question will the motor be ok at 919

Not that simple, everything comes with a cost, newer, bigger liners, pistons, and the lower case needs to be bored, along with the new liners, to fit the new pistons. Also the OD of the new liners are larger, so the muff needs bored also. Bob

Re: Umra- king of the tq midgets
 

Don't think that will be the big equalizer, plus the fact the car probably won't pass tech, tubing too small to pass for a midget, have you seen what happens when a big truck hits an automobile, or a train hits a big truck, don't think they'll let ya do it. JMHO! Bob

Is easy to see that "someone" doesn't attend Tq races IN Indiana.or they're one of those that has already switched to a 600/636 and still trying to convince others there's no advantage.thank you "eaglin boys"for making the move to try to keep tqs going.

I think tring to keep Honda alive is Great and I think that giving them a 917 they will be back on top .that is for the guys that has been working every year to make your car faster.for the mid pack guys have hard time beating Tim's cars on regular bases or terrys car so r you going to beat them with more c.c. I doubt it.as for changing a rule that was put in place 20 years ago is just plain stupid .yes my Kawasaki is faster than my Honda no doubt about it.of course my finishes didn't show this because handling issues. But putting new motors in a small box that you can't do any thing to the cc. What happens if you suck dirt and take coating off cyclinder now I have to buy another motor cause not able to bore out for fraction of cost .but no thought about this problem of course. And if Jason sester comes out and beats every stock 636 because he is better driver and get more out of any car he gets in .so Ron comb weigh around 1000 lbs so to slow Jason down he has to weigh 1100 to make him even ,and where do you bolt on 300 lbs safely. And than you can run 40 races on these motors .weekly mataince you wash air filter ,change oil every 6 races. This will all be a mood point in 2 years and the lack of a choose to build a motor how every you want will slow the number of new cars in to midget racing . and to Honda if you blow motor up it cost more to piece a motor together every time .and the 836 Honda beat the 636 at seraval track .and over half the wins that the 636 won they started on front row so luck of the draw and good handling .

Re: Umra- king of the tq midgets
 

I have no dog in the this fight other than an appreciation for the historical significance of the TQ class. I really like how they have stayed true to the long standing practice of running a midget type driveline instead of just becoming another class of chain drive micro/mini sprints (in Indiana anyway).

I do have a few questions for you guys that own these cars though... can you tell me what all goes into converting one of the newer 600/636 motors into a driveline motor? I am under the impression that rules state the cars can not have functioning clutches and gearboxes. I am wondering how much of the original tranny and engine gets removed,modified and what has to be fabricated/modified or purchased to use a u joint and what it actually bolts up to (crank or tranny primary shaft or????)

And also knowing that these motors run upwards of 15-16,000 rpm, and being under the assumption that the ujoint is mandated to be 1 to 1 with the crank, I am wondering if it has been difficult to get quickchange or ring and pinion sets with a deep enough ratio to wind em up on the little bitty fair race tracks.

If anybody could answer some or all of these questions I would be very thankful, and if this post is considered a thread hijack I will be glad to move this to it's own thread.

They hook up to crank shaft .you can take out tranny parts only need to keep clutch basket that turns oil pump .
Acro build a rear end that I think can get like 16 to 1 rear ratio so no problem with higher rpm.

Re: Umra- king of the tq midgets
 

We have been seriously considering moving into a newer 4 valve engine and from everything we can tell it would be cheaper in the long run. For us the biggest expense would be to change the rear end but we are pretty sure we can gear for about every track except for Rushville with what we have. I have my doubts that setting 750 Hondas back atop the pile and tying the fate of TQ racing in Indiana to the 750 Honda is a good idea. It sure seemed like there was finally hope that TQ's could evolve past the 750 Honda dinosaurs they have been running for 30 or more years and take advantage of the abundant amount of 4 valve engines that are out there. There are parts that you just can't find for a 750 Honda anymore. It's all going to end up being who has 750 Honda parts left over. Supply and demand. Cost increase. You can put a brand new engine in your car out of a crashed bike for about what a 750 Honda rebuild will cost you. Perhaps I am way off here but I am not optimistic about the decision for TQ racing. For myself... sure.

If you can unearth a #34-36 gear set, and have a 5.38 r&p Winters, on 10" 68" rr, you can do Rushville, and Madison. Bob

Re: Umra- king of the tq midgets
 

As a driver that has been racing TQ's for the last few years I don't see anything wrong with this rule change. There is an OBVIOUS difference in speed between the new technology guys are running and the old 836 engines most everyone has been running. Before this year I never really felt I was getting beat on horsepower... This year I was definitely getting beat on horsepower. I think the UMRA King of the TQ Midgets team is making a move in the right direction with the rules.

-Kyle May

Some of theses rules were made 30+ years ago.but,just like in life,as technology evolves so must rules.to say a rule should never be changed,now what seems more stupid?you suppose USAC,and other racing bodies,are still using 30 year old rules that's never been changed?besides,T.E.promotions inherited these rules and can change them as seen fit to help prolong life of the tqs.no one is saying the 4 valve can't be used,but will be with limitations.the Honda 750 has been limited for years,otherwise we'd have 1000cc ones running around.

Re: Umra- king of the tq midgets
 

I guess we will all see how it goes. Hopefully TQ racing can continue on. How lucky we all are to live in a country where we are free to build racecars and squabble over how we build them.

I've never been around a racing group that collectively whined, cried, bickered, and pointed more fingers at each other more thean the TQ guys... The rule amendment wasn't a mandatory rule change saying everyone has to punch out their engines. it is just an option to help keep the one type of engine competitive that most teams still use. i have even talked to some that have no plans to make the upgrade and will still run their Hondas as they currently are. If you want to race in the Tq series then build a car and motor how ever you want to and go race. Let your race finishes do your talking for you. I don't own a Tq so it's not a big deal to me one way or the other, but I do race in the series as much as I can. Additional cc's for a particular engine won't kill an entire race series or turn away potential new participants. However, I can tell you from personal experience, constant arguing over things like engine rules absolutely will.

Re: Umra- king of the tq midgets
 

Chris and Matt, you're totally correct about the bickering. I have two different newer style motors in progress, but I will keep a Honda around. The newer motors are actually cheaper in the long run as you can pick a brand and generation, buy a injection and have the appropriate adapter made and go for it. The motors are kinda disposable, buy another put your injection on and go. If you scatter a honda you're in for rods at least 1 piston rings bearings a crank and possibly a cam. Bearings, rings, and valve springs are a costly and least twice a year maint item on the hondas as well. I've bought two wrecked bikes for no more than 300 each at the insurance auctions.

Badcoupe? If you were allowed to run 114 octane (race gas), and did not have too flash the ecu or convert your injection if allowed by the sanctioning body. How much cheaper would this option be for the people wishing to change to the newer 4-valve motors?

It would save 2k easy. Injection conversion from hyper or guhl etc is 1500 plus pump regulator power commander if needed, some reflash ecu instead of using pc. So it can go either way. Add lines and fittings and a filter. The pump lines regulator and filter would be needed even for stock injection. Getting rid of the dry sump tank and lines saves a bit of weight even compared to the radiator and two hoses. Make a header or have one fabbed up. I build a few lightning sprint motors one is still on gas the others are on alky. Other than ring jobs they're rather maint free and even the rings last much longer than the air cooled Honda. Water cooling has a lot to do with it as the bores stay very concentric compared to the air cooled motors. The Hondas are always slightly out of round when you drop the bore gauge in.

Thank you Sir for your response.

Re: Umra- king of the tq midgets
 

The only problem I see with the new rules are the bore and stroke rule for the 636 four valve motor.That rule forces you to use a Kawasaki if you want to get out to 636cc. Kawasaki is the only one that builds a 636. Honda Yamaha and Suzuki are all 600. Every piston company like J&E wiseco and CP make 636 kits for the 600 Why would you make a rule like that it cuts down your options just make the 4 valve motors 636.and be dun with it. forget the bore and stroke.

Re: Umra- king of the tq midgets
 

hill

Perhaps if the rules stated 2mm over bore is allowed and stroke to remain stock it would work out better. A 2mm overbore in any 600 results in about 630cc's. The old Kaw 636 are motors out of the past. They have not been in production for several years now I think. It was used by Kaw to get a one up on Yamaha and Suzuki for the street rider. The racing version named the 600RR was the same engine with a 2MM smaller piston as the AMA limit on 600 race bikes was 600cc's with no allowance for wear. It had a much better head and cams so the serious racer would buy the 600rr head ind put it on the 636 motor for Micro racing.

Since the 636 motor is obsolete, and these new motors have chrome plated bores installing 2MM over size pistons and simply boring out the cylinder is not an option. To overbore these motors the racer must send the block off and have it bored out re sleeved with aluminum sleeves and then re chromed and honed to size. This option can be as high as $1000.00 I guess now days.

When we raced 600cc uprights they had a 2mm over bore rule also. That meant that when we got a new motor it had to go out and put new pistons in it before we ever raced it. (We were a lot dumber and richer back then, I was working on my small fortune) That wasn't too expensive back then because the motors were steel sleeved back then and only required an over bore and new pistons installed about $600.00 + labor, now they are looking at probably $1500.00+ Labor.

Just restricting them to 600cc's with no overbore allowance would be much better for the racers, and to be honest not too many racers will be able to take advantage of that extra 30cc's. Most weed eaters are about 30cc's.

In all seriousness you guys racing stock 600cc motors will run just as good as the 636 guys. And when that 600cc motor bites the dust buy another low mileage motor and replace it.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

PS sorry Bob I tried to keep my nose out but that "old devil made me do it."

DAD, I'm hoping the plan is to see if it helps the Honda's enough to let the 4 valve motor stay at 700cc. Bob

Re: Umra- king of the tq midgets
 

Bob

Just throwing stuff up against the wall. Suzuki is the only Manufacture that makes a pretty good 750 cc motor for racing. Yamaha and Honda and Kawasaki seem to stay with 600cc motors. Why not grandfather the 700cc motors and set the limit at 600cc's. The heads are pretty good on the 600 motors the 750 Suzuki uses the same head I think. The cost of making a 600cc motor larger or 750cc motor smaller would probably double the cost of a stock 600cc motor and not add a lot to performance. Just Saying>>>>>>>>>>

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Umra- king of the tq midgets
 

DAD Kawasaki makes a 2015 ninja ZX 636. Also all you need to due to a 600 is bore it and have it re plated no sleeving is needed. cost is around $500.00 I build them all the time for bikes and mini sprints. I own Watson Racing inc. in greenwood I am the guy that builds Dustin wheeldon and Kevin Blues engines. Like I said in my last post making a bore and stroke rule will force you to use a Kawasaki 636 36cc on a small engine makes a big difference. A 600 will not compete with a 636 if tuned correctly.

Re: Umra- king of the tq midgets
 

hill

Agreed 600cc's should be sufficient. If a guy has a 700cc motor grandfather it in. As far as overbore? I just bought a 2014 Yamaha for $1500.00 off of EBAY and I bring it to you for 2mm oversize pistons, Am I going to pay you $500.00 and go racing? ;) Or will that 2mm come with a price tag close to that of another stock engine. Probably the demand for Kaw's is still pretty high too right?

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Umra- king of the tq midgets
 

I haven't payed too much attention to the Kawasaki 600cc engines lately. I have spent a lot of time with the 1000cc motors however. The older 600cc motor had a bore/stroke of 67mmx42.5mm. They simply increased the bore to 70mm's to achieve 636cc's.

In the new 636 motor ol' Kawasaki decided to get the 636cc number by increasing the stroke, it dimensions are 67mmx45.1mm coming up with 636cc's also but giving the motor more low end grunt for the street, and probably making a better TQ choice also.

I have not read the rule book, but in the face book they state that the 636 package must remain stock bore and stroke dimensions.

What If>>>a guy started off with an older 600cc motor. They had a bore of 68mm's back then. Kaw tends to stay pretty much alike with internal dimensions. What if a guy dropped a late model crankshaft down into the older block. I haven't been inside one of these motors but knowing Kawasaki it probably would fit. Now you have a 600cc motor that been increased to a bore and stroke dimension of 70mmx45mm. Very close to 700cc's.

Would that be legal?:)

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Umra- king of the tq midgets
 

how about just a 600cc 4 valve and ban the 636cc. That would make it simpler Kawasaki makes a 600 to. Then you could use a Honda Suzuki Yamaha Kawasaki every one would be equal then with lots of options.

Re: Umra- king of the tq midgets
 

hill

I like your style.:) But it would keep us guys who like to think outside the box very few options to play with. I would imagine that the extra power of that 36cc's is probably also brought about by more compression. These little motors still need a lot of tuning to work well in a race car giving engine guys like yourself work, but investing the price of another engine on 36cc's seems a bit off to me. I don't really know how we got off on the 2mm bore in the first place. I guess the reason was because everybody since the beginning of time allowed for racers to bore them out when they wore out (dirt and no air cleaners tended to do that I guess back then). Now days With labor and parts cost vs. replacement engine cost it just is not cost effective to bore them anymore.

It is kind of nice to talk to a guy who calls it the way he sees it, and is looking out after the racers best interest.:)

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Umra- king of the tq midgets
 

I wonder if the 600cc motor is not as much in demand for Micro racing would they also be less expensive than the 636 version of the motor?

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

I was wondering last year at king of Tq banquet Terry said 2016 was his last year.who is this going to take over operation.how is this changes going to effect the future of any club .