Does weight matter?
 

Just wondering what everybody thinks. I race 3/4 midget and my car and me weights around 900 pounds . The average car weight is like 883 but the driver winning some of races is right at 800 pounds .So im giving up 100 pounds to him ,would he go faster with 100pounds more or slow down a couple of tenths? In another club they have a kid that might be 720 pounds and he is winning every thing in sight . The club i run with has been thinking of changing weight rule to something alittle higher ,so what would be a good number to keep cars more competive?
and should you make change in middle of a race season?

Re: Does weight matter?
 

Lighter is always going to be faster

Re: Does weight matter?
 

Common sense gives most people the answer, some can't understand it, but here's what the "big boys" figure. On an IRL car, they sometimes change colors everyweek or 2. I watched an interview, with one team, and they were asked why they went to the trouble to remove all the old color, before re-coloring, why not just scuff it and change the color? The answer, the amount of paint used, weighs 7 lbs, in their testing, they found the 7 lbs EXTRA weight, was worth a tenth of a second a lap, rocket science say 10 laps, and you're behind one full second, now, multiply that by the extra amount you weigh, versus the lighter car and driver, and again, rocket science tells you, you'd just as well go fishing, with engine HP being so equal, it makes sense to correct the minimum weight NOW, it isn't that big a deal, to equalize the field. The move to 800lbs, did nothing to equalize the difference, the lightest that was weiged was 801 or 802, most were over 850, and some well over 900, so it should have been at least 850 or 875, to better level the field, it's foolish to make it any other way. Just a thought, if weight doesn't make "any"differrence, then engine size "shouldn't be a factor either, so why not allow bigger engines, to make up for the weight difference? Bob:)

Re: Does weight matter?
 

ea Titanium bolts, carbon fiber components, etc etc.. the lighter you can be the better, and when they implement a weight rule of sorts, being lighter is your advantage because you can hang the extra weight where it's most beneficial..

this coming from an overweight driver.. lol

Re: Does weight matter?
 

When Doug Wolfgang drove the 49 car he was asked why it wasnt very colorful. He simply responded, "paint would add 3 pounds"

Re: Does weight matter?
 

24midgets: I guess the question was just too difficult, maybe you should try to make it easier/simpler, I don't know how you do that, but it must be something more difficult than "driving" the space shuttle, or it could be that only those who are on the light end, are concerned, and don't want to make any waves, by responding. JMHO after being involved in racing for over 60yrs, might be my outlook! Bob:)

Re: Does weight matter?
 

That is why they put weight in race horse saddle's down here in KY they call it handycaping and works pretty good. Given the choice between 25 hp our 25 lbs I'll take the 25 lbs. That is not too fair for average adult male if you weigh the car only.

Re: Does weight matter?
 

i would much rather see them do a sealed stock motor that could be cheaper and lot more fun, maybe take 1000cc engine and keep it stock and sealed. what thoughts on that? TQ racing is going down hill last couple years and sad to say it but neither group seems to be doing very good, would a stock engine help it out?

Re: Does weight matter?
 

I would be against a sealed engine, simply because I like to do my own work. As I have said before, I run a stock engine, a 600cc Yamaha, not an aftermarket part in it, except for the cam chain adjuster, and I make my own, out of the stock one, so it's almost stock. Sure, it is still necessary to remove the trans, and plate the opening, but with some alterations, it could be possible to use the trans case as is, just remove the gears and etc. A spec engine usually means paying yet another "contractor" to go thru it, and verify it being what it's supposed to be, then if you need ANY work done as maintainence, then it has to go back to the "builder" for that, which adds cost to the project, again, going in circles, and, no one says you have to run an 836 Honda, there are other choices, and a whole lot cheaper to build. The engine is not the problem, as I see it, and it's been the same way for years, too much variation in weight, of the car and driver, yes, if you continue to run the Honda, it still will be expensive, but as I said before, no where in the rules does it say you have to run an 836 Honda, an engine that is 42 yrs old, and never, ever was able to run very long, without expensive, aftermarket parts. All of this can be handled with a closer balance of the weight of the cars and drivers, there is no reason now, to even bother weighing the participants, almost everyone can meet the 800 lb rule, it's the average that we need to get closer to, and that was 883 lbs, I think that 850lbs would be a good place to start, and not put a burden on anyone. Bob:)

Re: Does weight matter?
 

Neibel kicked our butts for years with that V-6 car on pavement because they were allowed 200lbs less. Once the weight was equal
they were not so dominant.

The heavier the car the more energy it takes to start it in motion and more energy to stop it's motion. Simple physics.

I spent two weeks making decals for a certain high-profile driver's Chili Bowl car that were full of 1/8th inch holes to shave weight. I saved up all the little 1/8th inch dots that I picked out and they weighed a pound.

Re: Does weight matter?
 

Gary, these guys know where the problem is, has been for years, but they don't want to address it, some of these guys, who love racing, are spotting anywhere from 150-200 to the guys on the lite end, I guess no one ever played on a teeter-totter, the closer the balance gets, the more fun it is. It really makes no sense to mandate a different size engine, and watch everyone walk away, TQ's are not for the "faint of heart", they're more like old time midget and sprint car racing, you need to be a mechanic, and a machinist, and a thinker, to run one, that's where the fun is, if all you want to do, is go race something, get yourself a "Lightening Sprint", or something that you just throw money at, and it runs. The problem is, and everyone knows it, is the weight issue, which can be easily resolved. Thanks, Chris, for starting this post, maybe someone who understands, will read it, and make it right, that might cause a lot of cars to come back out and race, wouldn't that be awful? Bob:)

Re: Does weight matter?
 

Lighter is not always the best, although it sure does get you farther than being over weight.. on a slick dry track, I would prefer a little extra weight, esp over the rear wheels.. now with that said.. if your going to spend money to get lighter, really look into making your "rotating mass" lighter.. Drive line, and so on.. lets the motor come to life a little easier.. just a suggestion

Re: Does weight matter?
 

One would be amazed at the difference in weight, between a beadlock, and non-beadlock wheel, and the motor will appreciate it, same with rim/wheel sizes, we have the luxury of being able to use either a 10" wheel, or a 13" wheel, the wheel and tire combo, will easily take 15lb off each rear corner, and the motor really likes that, same with the front wheels and tires, that poor little motor has to get them rolling also. Axle sizes, hub material, ring gear weight, driveshaft, all contribute to what the motor has to deal with to get it moving, as well as the total mass. Just a lot of things that contribute to the whole picture. Another thing with my 600cc motor, even tho it's liquid cooled, it's a good 30lb lighter than the old Honda, and that's weight off the front end, that doesn't need to get moving, makes getting a bite easier. Bob:)

If you want to help out the TQ deal, give them a motor with power. Bob is right that it doesn't say you can run just the Honda 836, but the rules aren't there to use a Yamaha R1, or even an old Honda 900. Get with the times, and open up engine rules, and that extra weight won't matter as much, as you've then got a higher horsepower car, with smaller tires.

But if the average car is 825 pounds, then that's what the rule should be for now.

In micros, its 750, and very few are right there. But when a car is heavier, and you have more motor, and more tire, it doesn't make that big of a difference.
Posted via Mobile Device

Re: Does weight matter?
 

We have plenty of engine options, built into our rule book, which some/most probably either don't read/understand. The "new" rule on weight, is car/driver 800lbs, it was, 625lbs, car only, so did it change any? The idea here, is to "level" the playing field, and not hurt any one's wallet too bad, yes, some may have to add weight, some quite a bit, some none, or very little, but, the more you add to the bottom, it just takes that much off the top, so to speak, and yes, it may take a bit of ingenuity to do it, and be sure it will stay, but there are ways to do it, and not even see it. I don't think opening up the engine specs would be wise, as I said, there are plenty of options in the rule book now. Bob:)

Bob with that being said, could you go out and run a Yamnaha R1 and have the injection converted to alcohol and race it right now?
Reason I ask is I know people are having to spend 3 to 4 thousand on a motor that is a pain to work on, and rather unreliable. You can spend that same amount on an R1 for example, convert the EFI and go race it for the same amount, and be very competitive with it.

The weight deal does make sense, and think that needs to be addressed, but IMO (yes, its off topic), engines are a much bigger concern.
Posted via Mobile Device

Re: Does weight matter?
 

No, as far as our rules exist today, and I'd like to see it stay that way. My 600 Yamaha is very competitive, top 5, or better, almost any night we run, and I know you won't believe this, but including the Hilborn injection, I have under 1k in it, everything bought off Ebay, and when I started, in 05, with the 600, we ran that first engine 62 nights, without any engine failures, and that was just a dummy engine, all the parts were from different places, I just put it together, to see how it would perform. That motor made me a lot of money! I still haven't put any new brgs, or rings in any of the 3 I now have, no need, a motor out of a bike, w/ less than 7k on it, is just getting broke in. I usually run them one night, and ck the compression, and it's always right on the factory specs, plus, I am able to leave the starter on it, so I can fire it up, on the jackstands in the shop. The Triumph 3 cylinder, 675cc, makes a good engine also. Bob :)

Re: Does weight matter?
 

Bob what year 600 do you have. i ran the 99-02 yamaha and loved tht motor in the micros. i would much rather run a newer 600 in a tq then these old honda motors

Re: Does weight matter?
 

man sealed engine rules, i dont like either. To some people one of the joys of racing is playing with ther engines for good or bad. I'd rather see ways to limit how much horsepower you can put to the ground in some way. Also any series that runs a 1000cc class should also allow oilcooled gsxr 1200's. If you want more cars why make things obsolete when they're still readily available. In drag racing the early 90's gsxr engine is still a favorite, it's extremely durable and easier to work with.

Re: Does weight matter?
 

ALL other things being equal.....less weight would most likely be faster. But, keep this in mind. If you could squeeze Steve Kinser's 230+ body into one of those cars, there is NO doubt, he would be the one you'd have to deal with for the win. Take that for what it's worth. I definitely would not change rules mid-season. Just show up, and give them everything you've got. Make them ask themselves if they should be adding weight.

Re: Does weight matter?
 

Buckshot, I use the 1993-2012 YZF600R, not the R6 like you ran, and for a reason, and when you're old enough, I'll tell you. Let me get something else out of the way, I've had "people", come on here and tell me, "you haven"t won any feature's" with your low cost engine, and that's true, but we are almost always in the position to win, and for the cost difference, I'll take that, if this engine package had been a real "ass kicker", how long do you think I'd have been allowed to run it? People who know me, know that I dance to a different drummer, I'm not satisfied running something every one has, I like a different sound, if you will, I like to experiment, but at my age, I don't really like to work on engines anymore, I'd rather put a "bullet in the chamber", and run it, and not have to even adjust the valves, Hell, I don't even like to chg plugs, or oil filters, just race it. I did a lot of research, before I settled on this engine, availability, cost to buy, replacement parts cost, adaptability, ease of changing to a new engine, and a lot of other things, I even bought various engines, and took them apart, and compared them, and this was my choice, and I'm happy I picked it. This engine has been in production longer now, than the old Honda, and is still in production today, rod bolts are 4 bucks ea, rod and main brgs are 5 bucks ea, and all you have to do, is either call, or email your order in, and for 32 bucks, and 3 bucks shipping, you have a new set of rod bolts in about 3 day, not $300.00+ for Carrillo. When I built this engine, I tried to use everything that was needed, off the Old Honda, to keep the cost down, it wouldn't have mattered, if you bought a car, minus engine, you would still have to buy special parts to adapt it to be able to run it, so don't count that stuff, ya gotta have it anyway, but I made patterns, and had castings made, for the parts that were different, but still allowed you to run the stuff from your Honda, bolt on parts, Ignition, oil pump, crank adapter, engine adapter, to interchange from the Honda, thus saving you money, and in my line of thinking, that's a big consideration. Off Ebay, you can buy a complete, low mileage engine for under 600.00, or you can do as I do, and just buy parts, and come in at under 400.00, and the special parts to adapt, that's a one time deal, once you make the change, you reuse that stuff. Now, we still have the weight deal, that hasn't gone away, and with the Hp that all these engines produce, it is a big factor, in a "level" playing field, and it needs addressed, NOW! Bob :)

Re: Does weight matter?
 

Al, thanks for your input, and yes, we do have drivers who weigh in at Kinser's weight, and they do the best,with what they have. The issue here, as most of us see it, we we're "kinda" led to believe, after weighing the cars and drivers to get an average, and having a meeting last Fall to discuss this issue, that the weight rule would be 850#, car and driver for this season, but that didn't happen, that's why this post was made to start with, not by me, but by another racer, and when I made the comment, that if it were as it "was" going to be, it probably would add cars, to our car count, wouldn't that be "terrible"? And yes, I'm sure the ole "KOA" would make a formidable race out of it. Bob:)

Re: Does weight matter?
 

HMMMMMM:deadhorse:

Re: Does weight matter?
 

The cheapest horsepower is less weight...

Re: Does weight matter?
 

All you need to do is find a 95-100lb driver, get rid of these oversize grown up men and go racing.
I starterd out with a 95 lb kid (we won quite a few races) and I raised hell because the weight was too far off for grown men to compeate. All of the light guys dont want to change things and all cry the loudest. Its great if your kid wins a lot of races but it would even be better if they could learn racing from guys that can truly drive a race car. They might learn better racing manners. If the only drivers that can race with them are pre-puberty kids they will never know when they are charging, blocking and or giving racing room to the other driver. The only other racing experience they get "nascar" on Sunday and those guys are driving taxi cabs not open wheel race cars. We should not be racing like they do we dont have fenders.

Re: Does weight matter?
 

BTW, on ebay right now, are 2, complete engines, YZF600R, one at 8k miles, an 02, complete down to the overflo tank, for $645.00, free shipping by Forward Air, and another one, with a bad 2nd gear, bare engine $175.00 plus shipping. If anyone is really interested in cutting their costs of running a TQ, and getting into something in this century, tech wise, give me a PM with your questions, and your email, and I'll be glad to share 5yrs of development with you, I didn't make the switch to out motor everyone, just to be able to afford to continue to race, and be competitive. Bob! :)

Re: Does weight matter?
 

how much was the methanol conversion for the injection?

Re: Does weight matter?
 

For every 1 pd. of rotating weight you take off is like adding 6 HP to the engine. so pounds matter. either here or there. I totally agree with Bob that a weight rule that is fair and average, and when I say average I mean take 10 or 20 cars weigh them then divide by 10 or 20, get the average with drivers not just cars, that way us old farts have a chance when we weigh so cotton pickin much. Then you will see who really is the bravest in haulin it in and going. Tate Martz took our old heavy steel block 406 from 16th to 4th really fast at Waynesfield a few years back, and was pressing with a broken shock tower on left front causing him to spin in turn 4, and then got run over from a car tearing up front axle, and not being able to go from there.Tate ran that car with broken shock tower for I think about 7 or 8 laps, faster and faster until it was more then it could stand for a 3 legged horse. The left front kept bouncing like a basketball through the corners. The thing weighed so much and the track was fair to med. rough but was nice , rather alot better at feature time, and Jack Hewitt gave a couple of pointers on things and he took an average heavy car and blistered the guys for a while. that same car weighed I think 1563 with driver last year if I remember right, the car is fast on a heavy track but gets slower as the night progresses on; as track slicks off, it all matters, weight , setup, and driver, period. Tate past 4 cars on the back stretch during one lap. Last year we ran in a division that had a weight rule of 1425 with driver, no engine rule or injection rule. So yes weight matters period. The light ones are hard to compete with. Our steel block starts out at 210 pds. an alum. one most start at 95 pds. average GM 400 steel block is around 160 pds give or take. Ours was never lightened just bored out to 4.155. As they say every dog has its day or every once in a while a blind squirrel finds a nut.
So good luck with your decision.

Re: Does weight matter?
 

It depends, I bought mine, a Hilborn unit, off ebay, real cheap, and if you already have a set for your Honda, it's almost a bolt on, and if you have one of my pump drives on your Honda, I make an adapter for the Yamaha, that makes it a bolt on too, so you're looking at roughly $1200.00 for the first engine, in adapters, and cutting and plating the Yamaha. I haven't tried putting on an Acro pump drive, they are awfully heavy, but it could probably be done. Bob! :)

Re: Does weight matter?
 

So the old weight rule was 625 minus driver?....the new rule is 800 with driver. If the old rule was 625, why would you not build ur car to weight 625? Why in the world would any racer build his car to weight 200# over the weight rule?....Now the heavy guys want the light guys to come to them?

But but they wanna win too....put your car on diet and tell your driver to quit eaten pizza and chesseburgers.

But its not fair!!....no one told you to build a led sled 200# over and then go race it....and then complain your getting beat....Sounds like Obamacare, spread the wealth, I mean weight.

I'm hearing a lot butts.....I could go faster but - I could win races but

Re: Does weight matter?
 

I don't really know how to try to explain this to you, as it seems you are just stirring. The cars are not "built" 200# heavy, they are built to the spec's dictated, as I have built several cars, complete, and using the specified materials, plus the weight of the required tires, wheels, axles, steering, fuel tanks, arms, bars, front axle, spindles, body work, everything needed to put one on the track, most will weigh in at the 625# minimum weight. The problem is, probably 90% of the drivers are of average weight, in the range of 185# or so, and as posted earlier, after weighing the cars and drivers, we were told the average was 883#, but some were as low as 801#, which doesn't provide much of a level playing field. This is the issue, we don't expect everyone to weigh exactly the same, just to be closer to the average, to make the racing more equal. This may be hard for you to understand, from your post, I'm guessing you just picked this one to express your ignorance. Bob :)

Actually if you want to know the truth we almost always ran that car at 1368 lbs. So we were only 32 lbs. under the weight of the 410 cars and 68 lbs heavier than the 355 cars
Posted via Mobile Device

Re: Does weight matter?
 

Bob do you know of anybody around here that can convert a stock injection over to methanol reasonably? that is the big thing we have found expense wise, still cheaper than the honda though. The stock oiling system and everything is strong enough if you strip out the transmission and keep teh stock stuff. Having talked with some engine builders, this seems to be a reasonable way of putting one together without cutting the block yes a little more weight but not enough really if you get the realiability of an engine not 35 years old. We have found some micro companies that are doing conversions for 1300 to around 2000 for getting ecm reprogrammed and whatever else they do mapping fuel system etc...

Re: Does weight matter?
 

Now I dont know a heck of alot about tech, but I know someone who does. He's a mechanical genious. This is my phone # (570) 396-8783. "Steel River Outfitters" Leave a mess. and I'll call back, with his #. Honestly this guys the best, and he'll help you, for free. He knows alot about injectors, hell you trip over them tryin to walk thru his shop.

Re: Does weight matter?
 

TQ65, when I started this project, my intentions were to be able to use as much off the old Honda as I could, to keep the cost down. I peeled everthing off that had been added, and found that with just a bit of tweeking, I could use the pump drive, the ignition, the injection, and with some cutting and welding, also the headers. I would need a new engine adapter, crank adapter was the same, so that's what I ran with, so I didn't have to start all over with the electrical or fueling system, even run the same pill sizes, I figured the less I have to depend on someone else, this would also keep the costs down. Myself, unless it was an easy thing to do, that I could easily do, I'd go with the Hilborn. If you are running the Honda carbs, put them on, they don't know the difference what engine they are on, but personally, I'd steer clear of the factory FI, that's one reason they put another set of injectors up in the top of the air cleaner, one set is not enough. And, speaking of power to weight, these engines are good for about 120-130 hp, so with even a car and driver weight of 800 lbs, the p/w is only about 6lbs per hp, where with a sprint car, at 1362 and a 200 lb driver, and what will that 355 make, 700hp, you're down to just over 2lbs per hp, HuH, will that make a difference? Bob! :)

---------- Post added at 10:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:12 AM ----------

TQ65, what engine are you looking at to use as a base? There aren't many that will serve our purpose, as effectivley as others, also, trying to get to use the stock oil pan may be a trick in itself, most of them are about 4in deep, and that may cause you to have to relocate the engine too high in the chassis, and raise the roll center too high. Also, there is the driveline to be concerned with, with the higher RPM needed to get the Hp out of these modern engines, drive shaft speed becomes a big concern, as well as tire size, and available gear ratios, that's another big factor in the engine I chose. Bob! :)