USAC HPD Series
 

The USAC HPD Midwest Midget Thunder series is pleased to announce plans for the upcoming race season.
The series is planning a schedule of dirt and asphalt races in 2015, with a goal of expanding on the previous
focus as a developmental series to involve grass roots racers seeking a cost effective formula for midget
racing.
The Midwest Midget Thunder series will be open to competitors with HPD legal Honda and Focus engines,
and will move towards a ‘one car’ concept based on the traditional dirt midget chassis. The series is
committed to stringent enforcement of rules for 2015, and will work closely with competitors to seal and
inspect cars in order to meet the objective of low cost, competitive midget racing.
In order to provide full fields to promoters and competitors, The Midwest Midget Thunder Series has elected
to partner with area mini sprint/lightning sprint associations to co-sanction the dirt series races for the 2015
season. Montpelier Speedway’s midget series, the recent DuQuoin Indoor race, and associations such as BAM
(Budget American Midget Series) have demonstrated that the HPD legal cars and mini sprints have very
comparable performance on dirt tracks. There are three strong mini sprint associations in the Midwest,
(American Mini Sprint Association, Midwest Mini Sprint Association and Southern Ohio Lightning Sprints)
which primarily run winged races. Mini sprint participants will be required to meet the rules and
membership requirements of the co-sanctioning mini sprint association, and will not be required to obtain a
USAC membership. Each association will track points for its own members for any applicable point
championships. These partnerships will benefit mini sprint racers by providing non-winged race
opportunities at premier speedways in the Midwest, including Waynesfield Raceway Park, Limaland
Motorsports Park, Atomic Speedway, Jackson Speedway, and Plymouth Speedway, and benefits current and
potential USAC members by giving them assurance that they can own a HPD legal car and have ample
opportunities to race in the Midwest throughout the season. Negotiations are ongoing to finalize purse
structures and points’ funds, however several tracks including Waynesfield, Limaland and Atomic have
committed to a $500 to win, $100 to start payout.
The series is also committed to a long term strategy to bring asphalt midget racing back to the Midwest.
Columbus Motor Speedway, the Indianapolis Speedrome, Kalamazoo Speedway, Shady Bowl Speedway, and
Toledo Speedway have demonstrated their support in the future of asphalt midget racing by committing to
dates at their facilities for the 2015 season. In order to provide the best possible field to these promoters,
the Midwest Midget Thunder Series will utilize USAC HPD national rules for these events in 2015, and will
work with the North Carolina based Eastern HPD series for a ‘home and away’ series for races at Speedrome,
Columbus and Hickory Motor Speedway.
Please contact 317-771-6596 for additional information on the series, the Honda HPD engines, or rental car
availability.
USAC HPD Midwest Midget Thunder Series Schedule
April 25 Columbus Motor Speedway (1/3 mile asphalt) open to all USAC national HPD legal cars
May 1 Toledo Speedway (1/5 mile asphalt) with the USAC Silver Crown Series
May 2 Shady Bowl Speedway (3/10 mile asphalt)
May 23 Indianapolis Speedrome (1/5 mile, asphalt) co-sanctioned with USAC HPD East Series
June 6 Waynesfield Raceway Park (1/3 mile dirt) co-sanctioned with American Mini Sprint Association
July 24 Limaland Motorsports Park (1/4 mile dirt) co-sanctioned with American Mini Sprint Association
July 25 Waynesfield Raceway Park (1/3 mile dirt) (co-sanctioned with American Mini Sprint Association)
Aug 8 Plymouth Speedway (3/8 mile dirt dirt) co-sanctioned with Midwest Mini Sprint Association
Aug 22 Kalamazoo Speedway (3/8 mile asphalt) USAC HPD National Race
Aug 28 Jackson Raceway Park (1/4 mile dirt) co-sanctioned with Southern Ohio Lightning Sprint Association)
Aug 29 Atomic Speedway (3/8 mile dirt) co-sanctioned with Southern Ohio Lightning Mini Sprint Association)
Sept 5 Shady Bowl Speedway (3/10 mile asphalt)
September 18 Columbus Motor Speedway (1/3 mile asphalt) open to all USAC national HPD legal cars
Nov 21 Hickory Speedway (1/3 mile asphalt) (co-sanctioned with USAC HPD East Series)

Re: USAC HPD Series
 

Wow that sounds cool. I will go the USAC web site and find out the rules for this class. Also where I can get a Honda engine. LOL go to the site and try to find something out about this new class. Nothing about it at all

Re: USAC HPD Series
 

Glad to see a grass roots midget series again. It is also nice that USAC is having some co-sanctioned events with lightning sprints. This is a step in a positive direction to get midget racing back on track again and giving the lightning sprints a chance to get some exposure to new race tracks and fans.

Re: USAC HPD Series
 

Don't have a dog in the fight but it doesn't say to go to the website for more info. It gives you a number to call. Probably trying to avoid issues with those who have problems with reading comprehension.

Re: USAC HPD Series
 

I can read, can you read? 1st word in the thread name USAC. How much does usac care about this if they have nothing at the web site?

Re: USAC HPD Series
 

http://www.usacracing.com/news/hpd-m...late-announced

We all know USAC has had its faults, but to me it seems like that in this instance they are trying to take a step in the right direction. The article says the chain cars will be required to abide by the rules of the co-sanctioning organization, and the midgets abide by the USAC rules. They just get to compete together! If YOU are serious about this, give the phone number a call. What's the worst that can happen?
I'm glad USAC is giving recognition to midgets that aren't national midgets. There used to be a two tiered system back in the forties. When the Offenhausers became prevalent, they were given a separate class so that the older/other midgets could still run competitively. Sound familiar?

I hope that the Southern Ohio Lightning Sprint series grants some leeway into their rules for these races. You have to run their RR tire and be on gas only to run that series. If USAC wants to draw all of the Ohio cars in that area they need to at least open it up to alcohol.

Re: USAC HPD Series
 

Their Facebook page also says "if we schedule a special race for our group you will have to race two race nights prior to the race to be able to race."
That's a very odd way to attract cars...

Where does it say that, Jim? Jackson's page or the southern lightning Sprint page?

Thanks

What MMSA guys would be interested in trying asphalt. Tires would be the big challenge and after talking to numerous midget teams, used tires could easily be obtained. I feel like alcohol would be a must...

Re: USAC HPD Series
 

https://www.facebook.com/pages/South...19021541606163

It's from Jan 14th on the timeline.
Andy, the post at the top seems to imply HPD Midgets only on the tarmac...

Re: USAC HPD Series
 

I'd love to give the pavement a try however I believe I have a wedding (lame.) on the weekend that they are back to back. The information I've gotten was from facebook looking at the southern ohio rules. I'm only about 90 minutes from all of their races but run methanol. I'd happily add some weight to run with them but apparently their members want nothing to do with it.

Re: USAC HPD Series
 

jim where did you get the thought that the membership did not want you to run.

Re: USAC HPD Series
 

A post on the Southern Ohio Lightning Minisprints facebook page that I asked on. The members voted and wanted all stock gas only without exception. Go figure.

Re: USAC HPD Series
 

Jim ok understand now

Re: USAC HPD Series
 

im pretty sure that those rules were applied for jackson lightning sprint races. Not for the usac hpd series. I can double check and post on here. The members did vote on the american racer rr rule as well as the no alcohol rule. The rule on big scheduled event was to try to keep cars from coming in for one race and never coming back. Track owners are doing their best to keep the cost down and still enjoy racing. I dont disagree with trying to keep the big hogged out motors from making their way to the track. Many of the guys all had stock 1000 and wanted to keep everyone on a even playing field.. Hope this helps some. Some like the rule and some may not. :)

Re: USAC HPD Series
 

This is from the original post:
Mini sprint participants will be required to meet the rules and membership requirements of the co-sanctioning mini sprint association, and will not be required to obtain a USAC membership.
I understand the stock motor rule but methanol is considered by many to be a safety factor, and helps keep the motors cool, possibly prolonging their life.
The "two race" rule still seems quirky; a special event should be just that - special. Case in point is the non-wing show that the MMSA put on in Columbus last July 4th; Jay did a great job of promoting it on here as pretty much an "open" show and they got a great turnout and had an awesome race. So, it may have been the only time some of us ran with them; our back gate money still went in the cash box and I'm guessing it was welcome...

Re: USAC HPD Series
 

theres a meeting this sat ill ask what the rules are for the hpd shows.. I cant imagine they would stick to no alcohol and the spec tire due to the fact that the usac guys wont b doing either..

Re: USAC HPD Series
 

No disrespect, but read the post; sounds like USAC is treating it as 2 separate classes that happen to be on the track together; house rules, no USAC points.

Re: USAC HPD Series
 

The reason for spelling out separate rules is just for tech. Each sanctioning body would be inspection their own cars. Nothing more that that.

Re: USAC HPD Series
 

I spoke to USAC's Eric Rankin at length yesterday and you are EXACTLY right Jim...HPD has their rules and the co-sanction has their rules racing on the same track together...This is a very big step for both entities and non-national midgets as a whole

Re: USAC HPD Series
 

So>>>>>USAC is being magnanimous and allowing Motorcycle powered chain drive based Midget frame cars to compete in their Honda Focus division at all dirt shows and maybe one selected asphalt track. Are the Kenyon cars also included in this deal?

To me it sounds almost too good to be true. Did we win a victory or did the cold hard facts of doing business also somehow get mixed up with the deal? If a race organization fails to deliver enough cars to make a competitive and interesting race for the fans the chance of securing future date rapidly diminishes. Track owners are not as interested in the car count as they are the level of competition.. We are expected to put on a show for the crowd in the grandstands. If we do not do this they look for another option.

How could we make the racing better.

1. What the heck is so magic about a 20 car feature? The racing at Du Quoin a few weeks would have been much better if they would have started the whole field and to heck with the "B" mains. Racing is much better when cars are passing other cars. Whether it be for the first time or the forth time passing involves risk and skill and that is what people pay to watch. That was a little bitty 1/6th mile track and it needed more cars now what about a 1/4 mile track.

2. Why do we have a pill invert for the feature? Some racers have done the math and they know that winning a heat is not a mathematical good idea and the money is won in the main with not much reward for that heat win. Depending on the invert second or third holds more favorable starting positions for the main.

3. For that matter putting the fastest cars on the pole only to have them run off and hide from the field is also not very Entertaining to the crowd. I sometimes ask myself how does "professional wrestling" or even NASCAR do so well in attracting large crowds. I lay the reason to the fact that they sure sometimes look scripted to me. We don't have to script short track dirt racing but we could take steps to make the crowd ask for us to come back again, by making it more competitive.

4. USAC has made us an offer that we dare not refuse, lets go them one better and allow their Honda and Focus cars to compete with us at any of our shows with or without wings. They also have a lot of new drivers, and say what you like Wings do offer a great deal of help in smoothing out an inexperienced driver and getting them up to speed, not to mention the safety standpoint.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: USAC HPD Series
 

I'm not one who is typically anti-USAC but I have the feeling from the original text that once the Honda-powered field is amply stocked the offer to run with them is off the table. Maybe not this year or even next, but eventually I expect that the Powers-that-be at Honda desire the HPD Midget series to be just that.
Wayne, did Eric give you any other impression? If so I stand corrected.
This is 100% not intended to be criticism, merely observation; I wish HPD/USAC, AMSA and SOLMS every success.
In any case the Zonker is not AMSA and REALLY not SOLMS-legal, so I hope to see you all at Montpelier this year, the True Home of Midget Democracy.:31:

Sounds dumb.. so they're won't b but more then a few ppl doing it then.. way to get the car count up..

Re: USAC HPD Series
 

My point exactly, J. If you want to up the car count, open her up just a tad more...

Re: USAC HPD Series
 

************************************************** ************************************************** *

People this is what we call>>>COMPETITION>>>>>>>>>>>

I love competition...Every group out there is competing for the same cars and drivers. They are all basically Midget Race Cars. The group that can supply the best opportunity to race at a reasonable distance from home and offer the best purse while giving each individual racer the opportunity and expectation to feel confident in their own success within the group is the "WINNER" :):)

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: USAC HPD Series
 

Jim

The old concept of a spec type race car, where the competitors are tied to one particular manufactured race car or engine has been tried over and over again but they all eventually fail. The reason is because the sanctioning body in their desire to make a motor or chassis or racing parts more affordable to race by requiring the racer to purchase his parts from one supplier takes away a very important and fundamental reason for racing in the first place. Their failure is because they removed "Competition". When the racer is forced to buy from one supplier there is no need for that supplier to make his operation more efficient or design a better part where he might be able to sell to the racer cheaper. In the end the suppliers end up with the desire to make a larger and larger profit and the racers find that their inexpensive racing is just too expensive.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: USAC HPD Series
 

Think that if they want the lightning sprints to run the show they also should be able to run whateve the midgets are running..In this case hoosier rr and alcohol.. then i believe more ppl would come to race the hpd shows... I hope that the no alcohol or tire rule dont hinder the car count at jackson but ive talked to about 3 guys that said they planned on running there some but cant now cuz of the alcohol rule.. Hopefully dont end up a 6 car feature..

So it's the sanctioning body of the mini sprints rules that ban alcohol etc not Usac? So this will only affect the races at those tracks that cosanction with that particular group?

Re: USAC HPD Series
 

Correct however that is a 1/3 of the dirt races.

Well I would think that if the mini sprints impact the car count enough at the other races that they feel there will be a significant drop off that perhaps they could include say AMSA or Mmsa on the cosanction for those races. probably best for those interested to talk to usac individually so they know what they are working with.

Re: USAC HPD Series
 

My dad was in business for him self for many years before I decided to give it a try myself. After being in business for several years and doing pretty good I was thinking about maybe taking on a friend of mine as a partner in the business. I told my dad of my intentions.

My dad set me down and said, Son "In business the only time that you need a pardner is when you are loosing money.":)

I did not take on a partner.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: USAC HPD Series
 

Originally Posted by jjones752 View Post
I'm not one who is typically anti-USAC but I have the feeling from the original text that once the Honda-powered field is amply stocked the offer to run with them is off the table. Maybe not this year or even next, but eventually I expect that the Powers-that-be at Honda desire the HPD Midget series to be just that.
Wayne, did Eric give you any other impression? If so I stand corrected.
This is 100% not intended to be criticism, merely observation; I wish HPD/USAC, AMSA and SOLMS every success.
In any case the Zonker is not AMSA and REALLY not SOLMS-legal, so I hope to see you all at Montpelier this year, the True Home of Midget Democracy.
Jim

The old concept of a spec type race car, where the competitors are tied to one particular manufactured race car or engine has been tried over and over again but they all eventually fail. The reason is because the sanctioning body in their desire to make a motor or chassis or racing parts more affordable to race by requiring the racer to purchase his parts from one supplier takes away a very important and fundamental reason for racing in the first place. Their failure is because they removed "Competition". When the racer is forced to buy from one supplier there is no need for that supplier to make his operation more efficient or design a better part where he might be able to sell to the racer cheaper. In the end the suppliers end up with the desire to make a larger and larger profit and the racers find that their inexpensive racing is just too expensive.

Honest Dad himself

This was a great exchange of perspectives on the topic. I don't comment much anymore, but I can't resist here. Jim, if history is any indicator, you are exactly right. When we started the focus program on the west coast, we needed cars to round out the field because we just had a few Focii to start. So we invited the west coast TQ guys to race with us. Once we had a full field of Focii we kicked the TQ's to the curb. Now, it was not my call whether or not to include the TQ's and not my call about dumping them either, but I think one could possibly make the argument that it was a mutually beneficial arrangement. The TQ guys got to go to some really good tracks and race in front of some larger crowds (which they totally deserve to do, IMO), and the ford bunch got to put on a better show while the deal was ramping up. Once the field was full of Fidgets, the TQ's were naturally invited to race elsewhere. Nothing really right or wrong about that and really nothing underhanded about it - just business.

Now Dad - you and I agree on a whole lot more than we disagree on, but your post motivated me to illustrate an 'op-ed' view of what you said. I completely agree that with midget racers, perhaps more than any other bunch, the desire to be individual and to do your own thing is very strong. And obviously the focus project went away from that trend. But to say that spec engine type racing inevitably fails is just not correct. In fact almost ALL of the really successful series running today are spec. From IndyCar to Legends and Karting, spec programs have been very successful - just not in Midget racing but I think its obvious we have not had good management. When we started the Ford program, we did so because we saw large numbers of potential Midget racers choosing other forms instead because they offered less complexity and less overhead. The Focus program allowed guys to run a midget without the big motor bill and at the time, that was something new. Now, lots of groups are doing it and although I wish the HPD series good luck, it is destined to be an indiana thing and maybe a little on the west coast but I doubt it.

One final note - in the case of the Focus program there were a few reasons why it failed but one of them certainly was NOT escalating motor costs. I built every engine that ever ran in that program, including all the ones that were later sold by Roush, and the price I charged for a package never got out of hand. Other things did for sure, things not in my control, but not engine costs. And, although I did make a living at it for a few years I promise you I didn't get rich.

Thanks to everyone who keeps the conversation going - I'm kinda burnt out on it all but still love the sport.

Keith Iaia :32:

Keith......didn't you at one time toward the end of your involvement start putting out indications the focus motors were going by the wayside and that there was a new and more expensive motor that would eventually be implemented? Wasn't the original cost $75 or $7900 and it was near $10 or over $10 by the time you got out?

Re: USAC HPD Series
 

Keith

It's all about ******** and glad handing I'm sorry to say. Lets see you said Indy car was a success.:5: These guys get their rides with pure money. I go back to the 50's at Indy. Back then they might have 60+ cars trying to get in the race and we are not talking about back up cars that would be 60+ individual teams. Now they they have a hard time coming up with 33 cars for the race. We had Offy's, Novi's, Fords, Chevys, Buick's Maserati's and Studebaker's and even at one time A Cummins Diesel, and a couple of turbine's. It was very successful back then thank God, they are living on their past. Now Legends those little cars are related to the 600 roadster and Bandilaros sold by old Humpey still I guess. Compare those legends with the DWARF CARS, There is no comparison. Those Dwarfs and Mod lites are everywhere. Now Go Kart they might have a spec motor the hot set up now is the $100.00 Harbor Freight Chinese Honda Knock off. Then the racer goes to one of a 1000 engine builders and drop another grand or so in this little jewel so they will be faster than their buddies.

Focus Motors they were never meant to be in a race car. The head is not well suited to produce good Volumetric efficiency numbers. Wayne down in Florida allows porting on them and they sure need it and it does help a little, but even in this state of race tune it doesn't have much for the your little gm motors. I think perhaps the little gm motor might respond to porting and valves but the port angles are still not to good to really produce a lot of power.

The 1000cc Midgets aka Mini Lighting Sprint have been invited to race with the spec cars. Ninty Nine percent of these cars also race a spec or stock type motor. The only difference is our motors were not designed to haul groceries. They were designed to go to the race track on Sunday afternoon and our manufactures have spent a lot of time and money getting these things to a very very high state of tune. Two Hundred+ Horsepower from 1000cc motors isn't to hard to produce . If your little gm motors could produce numbers like that you would have a four hundred and twenty five Horsepower+ racing motor.

My observation is we already have more races scheduled and many times at some very top notch race tracks. We have a lot of dates that would be open for the USAC racers, why do we need to worry about co sanctioning races with them, why not open up our class to these other racers and lets compete with one another. We tried it a Du Quoin and it seemed to work great. If I or many other racers were required to race spec I would not race.....period.... the fun in racing to me is the hunt for more performance. If you want to race spec find a good Rental Go Kart track. I love racing a Montpelier but I also see the demise of Sportsman Racers their if we aren't careful.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

So.....you love stretching the limits of performance and competition, but you will only race cycle powered cars and you are worried of the demise of sportsman racing?

Re: USAC HPD Series
 

Leader

For $3000.00 I will be glad to sell you my bare motor right off the car>>you have to help pull it out. To pay somebody $10,000.00 for a super stock guaranteed perfectly identical to another one, no thank you. The cycle motors don't require any modifications. I would predict that Drive shafts are in our future however >>>>>I wouldn't be surprised to see forced induction also.

Indy was at it's prime before rules took over. The USA was at it's best before regulations started popping up all over the place and killing small business (death by paper work). When kids learned to work with their hands in school and from their parents they did not have to depend on a very few experts to perform their work for them. To me that is racing. My idea's against your ideas.

Today we also have a safer option>>> just sit in your chair punch in some parameters and race from home. Racing is expensive because so many racers never really learned how to work on or build a race car. That is one reason I have so much respect for old Bob on IOW. Bob is a guy that got up and did what was required for him to go racing, people like that do not respond well to spec racing. Spec racing is designed for people with little or no mechanical skills>>>>>>>>and even less desire to learn. "OUCH" Just my own humble opinion

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Everyone who purchased a Kurtis with Offy was an innovator of the sport? This sport has changed but not near as much as people of a certain age would like to believe.

Re: USAC HPD Series
 

Yeh

I kind of liked the V8 60 myself, I think Isky used the little Ford. And those Evenrudes sure made the race track smell nice, then you had the guys with the Harley Davidson's. Probably for every car Kurtis built their were 10 copy's made, some of them were very good race cars. They didn't depend on the 110 or the Kurtis chassis for the entire show. The DIY guys liked to say I built an Offy Killer and a few of them actually did.

Seems like we always want to give the engine all the credit. Doesn't the driver, chassis or set Racing Savvy or Luck up have anything to do with having a wining race car. Loosen up the rules inject a little common sense to give the little guy a chance to compete, it might surprise you, I don't think there is anything wrong with a person racing with ingenuity instead of money. The guys complaining about cheater motors can't even read a darned mike and have no idea what people do to a motor to make it better adapted for race conditions and not always more powerful.

Doesn't Honda sponsor the USAC National Midgets also, They don't seem to have a lot of engines in that class either.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Do you not see how you double talk over yourself? You say on one hand you want the sport to be innovative and you want the little guy to have a chance and then on the other hand you champion cars that are powered by engines produced by corporations.

You say you want the rules changed to allow innovation but you would like to see the current people who support the series.....restricted.

You do realize that the Fontana Engine, the Esslinger and the Gaerte were all created by individuals and the Toyota engines are developed and maintained by old school racers? The parts used in and on these engines are designed and produced by American small business owners. I know you are friends with the Potters so I am also sure you know how much $ was spent in the early research and destroy years of the engine being developed.

All the while.....in no way do you or most people who constantly complain have any intention of supporting these organizations no matter what they do.

So many people say they think the sport needs more corporate support and then when it has the support of a Honda or the alike....the same people $"it all over it.