Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

I don't know Andy...you guys last year in Florida running with USAC with only 7 cars put on 1 hell'va show!!!!!!!!

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Wayne & Andy

Sometimes it is best not to write some rules, If you don't have teeth to enforce the rule it means nothing and only tends to "P" people off.. Boy did them scales of Jerry's bite.

If them guys with the hot rods don't adapt they will go out of business, and maybe just maybe be replaced by a smarter group.

We by being open wheel are at a disadvantage. It takes a special person to go open wheel racing. It is in itself the purest and unfortunately still the most dangerous form of auto racing out there.

If one wants to be the best of the best start out in open wheels, that is where one first leans respect both for the cars and fellow racers. Like old PAPA OUTLAW would say 3 abreast and hauling as+ and never once touching one another. To me that is cool.

Florida has chosen to change engine packages, not a bad idea when you consider how many Ecotecs are laying around in junk yards, probably enough for 100 years of racing if we wished.

Most of the rest of us have stayed faithful to the motorcycle engines even though their numbers are dwindling. What we have to ask ourselves is do we stay with our engine choice either stock or hot-rod or do we start making a switch to something more available. And if so switch, how do we do it so as not to shoot ourselves in the foot.

That is where people "LIKE" Ted Johnson or Big Bill France or Emmett Hahn of Tulsa come in and take over and get the job done.

I love COMPETITION!!

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Dad you hit the nail on the head...If you don't have teeth to enforce the rule.... oh what we are doing is trying to open avenues for racers... I just put ring and bearings in my ford midget and total price on rebuild was $168.00 for all parts...then went out and won tlast Sat. night....will never ever do away with the motorcycle engine....it all about choice

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Way back in the 80's the old Honda 750 or Kawasaki 900 was hi tec. All Detroit had was the "Iron Duke, Vega, and Pinto motor. Those motors were so undeveloped the racers chose the VW as the motor of choice for midget racing back then. However when they got done with it there was not a VW part to be found in it. Pretty expensive motor to race at the time.

Then somebody said that little Pinto is overhead cam that would really be hi tec. Along came Esslinger and it is still the motor of choice to race midgets with today. Kinda of pricy for a new one of them too.

All through the 80's 90's and early 2000's the motorcycle were light years ahead of Detroit. With a booming economy quite a few of these motors got to the wrecking yards and into small car racers hands.

Ford came along with the z tec "Focus" motor. 4 valve overhead cam and it found it place in a midget and racing. GM not to be outdone comes up with the eco tect.

These two motors are approaching the HP per cubic inch of the cycle motor and do pretty good in a race car. They might be where we end up. When motorcycle motors are inexpensive and plentiful they are great, however we are approaching a time when there may not be enough of them to go around.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

They are still plentiful and great... Last I checked any 1000 that is commonly used can be bought for $900-$2500.
Other than hornets what else can you race for that kind of price. Not mention if you can purchase just the engine without the harness and injection its cheaper yet. While working with Engler I've had the same injection components and ignition on 3 different generations of YFZ engines with very little change.
Before we ran alky we had a stock r1 last for 76 races and we retired it. It won a championship that year in the 1x car. It was also still strong! And wait it ran on gas!

The Japanese engines with stock chrome cylinders, with stock internals, ran at the manufactures suggested rpm will last.
As mark says "PERIOD"
Like anything there's always lemons but they are uncommon.

I know fuel is a completely different argument and we will never be able to get guys to go stock on gas because of the safety aspect.

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

IT TOOK YOU FOREVER TO GET THAT "Engler" plug in there.

I would work on the Alky as the only allowed fuel, not for the safety factor or the engine life factor but for the tec-ability factor of it.

If your Methanol does not check out then if you like you could have the race director send your fuel off for a nominal charge, I think the TQ guys set the price at $500.00 to a lab and have them certify it, I would let water go by and call it legal but that would take a chemist to determin.

Bloomington opened a can of worms with the tire dopeing rule. If you send a guys gasoline off and find out 2 weeks later it has been doctored, he is mad, the other racers are mad and you end up with 30,000 hits on IOW with pro's and con's about an already dumb rule. There is as much or more power in the fuel can than you can generate with a set of high compression pistons.

It is impossible to tec gasoline as God did not create any of it equal. Methanol on the other hand should always tec the same, it would be an easy pass or fail test.

If the equipment is at the race track, the racers should check their fuel before the race, because a little water looks just like a little nitro.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

What can I say, in 5 years I will have saved 3-4k?
How much you saved with that dry sump? Hehe

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Andy

In favor of the EcoTec. I can go to any wrecking yard and buy a low mile eco-tec for $500.00. It is the cheapest thing of the entire engine package. That Engler injection will stay with me probably forever, as well as the ign module or ECM if I decide for electronic injection. The headers can be repaired if needed. If we decided on big valves springs and cams most of them should also be reusable.

If piston, rods and cranks remain stock best not get too carried away with "VE". Looks like the ecotec midgets and us both run real close together and only spotting them 1000cc's.

Can you imagine a 2 min gear change?

Bet old Mark is spinning like a top over his thread!

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Mark and I have debated the tech procedure of gasoline. Yes........a can of worms. Maybe not a feasible solution but we thought about simply stating......buy your gas at a designated gas station close to the track. We could test and compare somewhat then. If you think your gas is close to what that tests.......knock yourself out and good luck. At this point...........we don't have very many "gas guys" racing around here so it hasn't been a big issue............yet. Hoping this meeting will get us all some "direction" on how to deal with this issue also.

Not a tire expert but..................does soaking or treating a spec tire soften it significantly? If so, how much is a good rule of thumb a Hoosier SP2 can be brought down to as compared to it's starting point???? My Go Kart buddy has been trying to enlighten me somewhat to all the crap that goes on with tire treatments. All this info makes my brain hurt. If I has educated me on one thing..........it's Go Kart guys that run asphalt usually have one hell of a tire bill.

Oh.........I see where you can buy those race ready Ecotecs, race ready all day for $10,000. Couple that with a quick change/torquetube/ball setup and start looking at the overall price then. Plus.......push trucks. The promoters we have dealt with preferred race cars with starters. Ecotec style cars defeat that purpose. To be clear.....I have nothing against Ecotecs. I wish them better luck than the Ford Focus deal went though.........

If you are going to go that route.........open up your rules to 1400+cc motors and compensate with weight if you have to.

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

If you have a good driver and set up guy, it will be faster, but with a good driver and set up guy you will be quick anyhow. I would think it more like a placebo, but placebos work also.

I would recommend a cheap hard right rear and a durometer. If they want to spend $100.00 a gallon on dope and it does not check soft let them buy it.

We tried a doped tire once. AJ was going to run it at the Chili Bowl and decided against it. It set for for about 4 months and we tried it for the first race at Bloomington of all places. That thing was slicker tire and in 10 laps into the main it was slick, poor choice.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

How about the left one?

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

SP2 will durometor 40 - 42/43 ...the last 2 years I checked evey tire that I had or sold and not (1) was under 40...we are talking over 100 tires so as per my rules it's 40 (BEFORE) a race or quailifing...39 you are done period!!! (that tire)...you do not want to go down the tire prepping route....what drove me out of karting....800.00 per state race....crazy!!

2012 midgets around all day for 8-10K...add a $500/$900 STOCK long block then your bolt on stuff..fuel pump..injectors...electronics....bell housing....close to $13-14K...all have starters and clutches...no need for push trucks....189 HP...cut the head maybe 196... Price to rebuild $168.00...just did it...

when ROUSH took over that deal it went down hill...12K for a motor....somebody was making $$$$$....then again WHO'S fault was it???? USAC cause they needed to make X amount at the racers expenice...

Weight...935 "STOCK" 1000cc .... 1000lbs. STOCK 1200cc....1125lbs. STOCK 2.0-2.4...Ford/Chevy/Honda/Quad 4...it is a win win for everyone....

sub...if a picticular combo starts to dominate 4 or more wins in a row...slow'm down with a harder RR or add weight...see how easy that is...

NONE OF THIS IS POSSIBLE WITHOUT TECH.....BY THE BOOK IN BLACK AND WHITE...NO MATTER WHO IS GETTING TECHED

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

A>S>A>P>!:D As soft as possible. Don't know about you guys but we drive off of the left rear.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

You are a classy guy Wayne, I like your style! Just think of all them names we called one another> (under our breath of course)

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Since we have had so much problem with Cycle motors lately, It might be a good idea to buy one of AJ's older midgets and then build an Echo tec for it. Should be able to get a good deal from Tim on an injection set up, I can build the headers and all we would need would be a clutch deal to go racing.

I got $600.00 in that dry sump pump and built the tank, It wasn't the dry sumps fault it was a couple of main bearing bores in the blocks that went out of round and dropped our oil pressure.

It is a Kawasaki thing you just would not understand!:D

Next problem is finding some place to race,

Brian? got that garage located yet?

Bill? Jerry? either one of you guys open to a very fast experimental car?

PAPA OUTLAW? how far is it to the Bull Ring from Louisvile KY?

Phil? Got any room out west for different type of Eco Lite Sprint?

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

The only reason I brought up the tire prep deal is because I think we all know..........it is probably being utilized by a few. Maybe a hell of a lot more than a "few." But the way I look at it, even if you have a spec tire rule..........durometer check is a must unless you have an "open tire" rule. Just because a racer has a tire that says it's one thing.......it might durometer something completely different due to treatments. To be honest......our group back this way runs an open tire. Couldn't get Hoosier or American Racer to kick in enough to make it worth mandating their tire. Plus.....we haven't seen any big advantage since everyone is either running a Hoosier 12, 15, SP2 or American Racer 33 or 38. Quite a few of our guys have went the American Racer route simply due to price. Anyway.........seems a durometer reading as you COME OFF the track would solve some of the tire issues??? However.......I realize some groups depend on a tire manufacturer supporting them financially in some way.

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

If you can get a good deal on tires for the racer do it. Ask the American racer guy what kind of deal he can give you on 10 maybe 20 tires. Each one of them guys is a dealer try shopping another one for price also some of them want to sell more tires than others.

I would probably set a checking pressure also. Maybe 15 or 20 psi. Those big old wide tires will check different in the middle at low tire pressure's.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

We had that problem, but we fixed it... now we drive off both.

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

We are working toward that end but being hill billy's we are a little slow. Maybe in another couple of years.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

I am a Hoosier dealer for the series but I DO NOT mandate you have to run Hoosiers....Everyone gets the tires at cost...I give Connie a call and they order whatever tire they need...but if you want the contengenciey $$ for a race you have to have hoosiers on all 4 corners,,,American Racers are a better deal $$$ wise but but they wanted to mandate EVERYONE on AR and I feel not to mandate what tire a racer choices to run as long as the RR is 40 on the durometor...not 39.9

Sp2 are easy to find and I get most of mine used. Usually make 2-3 trips a year to Indy buy 20 at a time, take 3 for my self and sell the rest to racers to offset the cost. I bought 3 new tires this year and couldn't tell a difference.... :)

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Here in Florida I buy 2 RR in Feb and that will last me 20 races...still have 1/2 thread on them (SP2)

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

My American Racers last around 12-15 races. I run a 33 compound. Usually has quite a bit of tread left but the durometer will climb to high from heat cycles to justify keeping them on there. I like the American Racer prices is the main deal.

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Plus customer service from American is 2nd to none. Tony Rose even cut ours for us..

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Even through heat cycles they (Hoosiers) stay the same....40-41...after 10 races

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Guys want room to "tinker" in racing, do things they think will give them an advantage. I think a predominately stock engine package, with room on injection, oil pan and system would do that. If they want a quick change let them have it...

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Can I have my Echo tec?

Right now I am thinking that I might start working on an Esslinger.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

I think a Eslinger is just what ya need!
;)
They are running a special this month.

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

The $25,000 special? lol

Yup. Lol

25k engines, further solidifies the need for a economy open wheel class.

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Plus throw in another $2,400-$2,600 to get a driveline system in it. Ooops.......better have a tank and bladder system or there's another $1,500 to get it painted and mounted. Oh gee.......that cheap tire bill you had just flew out the window. Of course, if there is plenty of high paying midget races in your area and you can win every one of them.........you "might" come close to breaking even. Hell of deal.

I just remembered why I got out of midget racing.

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Andy

$25,000.00 sounds like a whole lot of money, but if you break it down into individual parts it doesn't look to bad at all. We are comparing a purpose built race motor to a used and perhaps damaged psudo stock motorcycle engine.

If you were to buy a crate brand new 2014 zx10r engine the price would be about:

New engine long block $5000.00
Custom Fuel injection and plumbing $3500.00
custom pan and oil pickup $600.00
Custom air cleaner $500.00
Ignition system $1500.00
Header and muffler $850.00

Total $11,950.00

Of course we have the option unlike our midget bigger brothers of buying salvage motors, which may or may not be a good idea.

I bought two salvage motors this summer that apparently had taken a hard hit to the stator side of the engine. I suspect the sellers bolted on another flywheel and cover and sold it. After the fact I find that the main bearing on two of these motors on the Flywheel side were .0035 and .003 out of round. Could not figure out where all my oil pres was going. Pop a few of these things and it can ruin your outlook on racing.

Midgets on the other hand don't have junk yards with motors in them and they have to start from scratch. They produce about twice the horsepower of one of our little bombs, and use quality purpose built parts.

Just guessing Their Numbers would go something like this I think:

Cylinder block $3000.00
Cylinder head $2500.00
Ti valves 8@$150.00 $1200.00
Ti retainers 8@ $50.00 $400.00
Valve springs 8@$50.00 $400.00
Camshaft $400.00
Lifters $200.00
Rockers $200.00
Head gasket $75.00
Pistons, Pins, & rings $1400.00
Ti Rods $4500.00
Rod Bearings $200.00
Crank shaft $3000.00
Main Bearings $200.00
Oil pan $600.00
Dry sump pump and Plumbing $3000.00
Fuel Injection and Plumbing $3500.00
Air cleaner $500.00
Ignition system $1500.00
Water pump $200.00
Headers and muffler $1000.00
Misc gaskets $100.00

Total $28,975.00

That would give you minus $3975.00 to put the thing together tune and Dyno it.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Phil

I have several friends that have mad a small fortune racing USAC National midgets.


Honest Dad himself:6::6:



PS Did I mention they started out with Large fortunes.

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Don't you think a penalty , lets say loose all your points would be a good enough deterrent ,or better yet have your tech committee check the cars out before they are allowed to race

If guys actually think they will be teched, it would probabley be enough of a deterent. However if there was a national rule base, and enforcement a guy couldn't hop from series to series with an illegal car. Make the penalty wide spread. That would make them reconsider.?

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Huh??????????????????????????????????????????????? ????:D

Somebody should get a little poll going and see what really is Important.:44::6:

Got to get back practicing now I'm a little off on launch speed.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Well go ahead and get one started.

Wow.. this thread is going off the walls....lol the funny part is since the "big money" engine was brought up, I don't get why the ecotec deal isn't blowing up. When you blow one up, cruise on down to your local parts store and buy a long block for less than $1000 and run it for 2 seasons or more. I thought the issue is about getting a "stock" set of rules everyone is in agreement with that helps our sport, invites others with lower budgets such as myself to have an economical class to run and help it grow. I still consider myself the new guy and the biggest turn off I see most the time is people going back and forth about rules, the lack of enforcement of said rules, the price of engines, built engines, tire rules , etc. People are going to figure out how to go fast and win no matter what which is part of competition. Just throwing this out there, why not make it interesting but offer an incentive for winning the cheapest or something. I enjoy the class, the racers in it, and the economics of the class. I hope this meeting is a step in a good direction for getting everyone on a common ground and help this class moving in the right direction.

Re: Central region Lightning / Mini sprint meeting
 

Patrick

Some of us are passionate about these things. It shows in the conversation between one another. Our Ideas may be 180 degrees apart from one another, and that is a good thing. Internet boards and public meeting are a great way to express our thoughts and opinions, But a very poor device for achieving our goals and making rules.

These guys are going to have a meeting next weekend. There will probably be some discourse and some agreement. It would be terrible if they all agreed, then we would have a mutual admiration society and very little depth and understanding about what is really needed.

At the end of this meeting or perhaps it best be called a conference, "Two" guys are going to have to go back home with whatever knowledge they hopefully gain from the other people in attendance. Hopefully they may change some of their preconceived ideas and reinforce some of their other ideas and come up with a set of rules that they hope will help grow their group. If their rules are good others will follow them, to an extent.

Hoping for something that will work for all groups through out the entire USA is probably a wishful thinking.
People in Florida see things and do things different than people in Vermont, it still boils down into what works best for each particular group, and what will "Racers" have to change to race with the other guys.

With the invent of the internet all of us are better connected than ever before. I can remember going to race tracks with just a little more knowledge than I could get out of the "Speedway Guide" and hoping we would be allowed to run with at that particular track, a few times we ended watching the race because we could not meet their specs.

I wish we could have more people on IOW express their own ideas about what we need to move ahead. Sometimes I sit around just thinking of what I need to do or say to get a response out of people, sometimes I am very successful sometime not so.

We have a lot of challenges out there to think about, some urgent, and some maybe urgent only in the future. We just need to keep on talking and listening to one another, keeping our minds open to the other persons thoughts and usually after it is all said and done we will some how be able come up with some pretty good rules.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Just asking wheres this meeting taking place thanks